Aidan

Doggy Zen is the concept of "to get the [insert desirable thing here], I must first show some self-control" It is a foundation behaviour and, thankfully, it generalises quite well if you give it a chance. You start off with some food in your closed hand, present it to the untrained dog. He will no doubt lick, paw, nudge etc to get the food, but you wait until he backs off, then open your hand and let him have the food. Pretty simple stuff, not particularly useful on it's own - but it's a starting point and you build from there. There is nothing "wrong" with using an interruptor IMHO, even many of the most staunch "purely positive" trainers will use an "interrupt and redirect" approach to some behaviour problems and manners training. An interruptor is something that interrupts the behaviour but has no future effect on it. Once an interruptor diminishes future behaviour, or becomes attached as a cue, it is no longer an interruptor. For e.g, it would be unwise to verbally interrupt the dog to speed up the "doggy zen" exercises, because then you miss the whole point - the dog starts to look for your cue, rather than adopting a "doggy zen attitude" of self-control and restraint. Personally, I like my dogs to have that attitude, at least some of the time! I do enjoy teaching a dog self-control, I do not enjoy micro-managing. I don't like my dogs to rush out an open door, steal party snacks, jump the baby gate, chase the cats around the house, jump on me for attention, bark to come inside/outside etc etc - It's all "zenned". Not interrupted, not punished, not put on cue. If you want to go out the door, sit while I put your leash on. If you want a piece of cabana, wait over there and I will give you a bit soon. If you want to come into the living room, sit behind the baby gate until I'm ready to let you in... I start off simple, manage the environment, then proceed from there. A small initial investment leads to long term dividends. I do use interruptors, I do use punishers, and I certainly use cues - but if I can "zen" it, that will be my first choice. Why? It has carry-over into real life situations. All through this thread I have seen people talking about "what if your reinforcer isn't strong enough?" or "what if the behaviour is self-reinforcing?" It doesn't really matter. An interruptor isn't going to work either in those cases, and a negative reinforcer is under the same limitations as a positive reinforcer. You can turn the stim up on an e-collar, but if the dog doesn't know what to do it's just a shock, even in skilled hands. What is important is your reinforcement history. If the dog has learned what works, that is what he will tend to do. If he's out of his depth, you're not necessarily going to fix it by switching to a "negative". If a dog has self-control then it all becomes much easier. I'm not saying my dogs have monk-like powers of self-control, let's be realistic, but I do know they are easier to manage around things they want than dogs who have not learned these lessons.

Certainly, did you see the link to Lindsay that I gave earlier? That gives a limited but unbiased review of some of the literature out there. This is the study that everyone seems to cite: http://westwoodanimalhospital.com/BhvArticles/bark_study.htm Another showing equal efficacy (also looked at stress): http://www.tuskegee.edu/global/Story.asp?s=1848281 This one looks at the effectiveness of citronella collars, how long the effects last post-treatment, and habituation: http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/...cNo=20013111307 (sorry, don't have a complete text but it discussed in Lindsay) This one has some good numbers and is well designed, using a controlled environment and does not rely on owner reports: http://www.jaaha.org/cgi/content/abstract/39/4/343

I would be interested in that, always open to more information. Yes, just 9 dogs. The other study I have here (somewhere) used a similar number of dogs and did not come up with a statistically significant difference between either type of collar. There is another study that is in favour of citronella, but I can't find it, I don't know how many dogs were in that study. There have been other studies which just assess the efficacy of citronella collars, there's no denying their efficacy. There is less information about electronic shock collars for barking. One big problem with any of these studies is the advances (or declines in the case of many of the cheap collars flooding the market) in the technology. If the collar does not activate correctly or if the timing is off, they are just basically a non-contingent aversive. I heard one ultra-sonic collar (yes, I hear ultrasonics) that would beep about half a second too late, and then beep for no reason at all at other times. Unsurprisingly, it had no effect on the dog in question at all. In any case, the study that shows citronella collars to be twice as effective as shock collars came out around 1995. If either collar hasn't improved since then I would be very surprised.

Sorry, typo - I meant Dr Katrina Ward (not Warren!) who is a qualified veterinary behaviourist. I don't know how much experience she has with aggressive dogs but she does do consults in Kingston (which is not too far from Cygnet). I do have recognised experience with aggressive dogs, but I am on the Eastern Shore, probably a little too far to travel.

Dogs do care what we think, but whether we express approval or disapproval isn't necessary to control a behaviour. Lots of people clearly express disapproval while unwanted behaviours are being reinforced. Similarly, lots of people clearly express approval while never getting more of the behaviour that they are approving of! You can teach a fluent, reliable "Leave It" using positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement or punishment. Using aversives won't make the behaviour any more reliable than using positive reinforcement, so if you are familiar with the positive reinforcement process and are satisfied that you can teach a fluent, reliable response using positive reinforcement, there is nothing stopping you from getting great results this way. You might want to look up "Doggy Zen", as it is the foundation for a very reliable "Leave It" behaviour using positive reinforcement. You might recognise it as part of the "Triangle of Temptation" which is so popular here.

Really? Everything I've actually read and learnt has said the opposite, that citronella collars have a much lower success rate than e-collars, for several reasons including that the citronella smell used as the 'punishment' can stick on the dogs coat thus 'punishing' the dog long after the thing they were corrected for (barking) occurred. I've never seen a study that claimed that electronic collars were more effective. However, all studies I have seen are small scale. The weight of evidence so far is in favour of citronella so that is what I would generally recommend. You are free to choose though. Studies have not shown electronic collars to cause more stress over time than citronella collars, so I wouldn't rule them out on those grounds. Steven R Lindsay has an interesting discussion of some of the factors and the science in his book "Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training" which, conveniently, can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/msvxf5 Lindsay also discussed the intermittent use and habituation issue, for those who are interested. In any case, for the OP, keeping your dog indoors will give much better results, with less stress, no cost, and habituation will not be a problem at all.

The problem with any anti-bark collar is habituation, which will happen to various degrees. Intermittent schedules will reduce this habituation, as was demonstrated in the experiment I referred to above. It may seem counter-intuitive, but that was the outcome. There have been many experiments that looked at the efficacy of shock collars over citronella collars. Citronella collars are the clear winners as far as effectiveness in reducing barking. As with anything, this is not "always" the case with every dog, but certainly across a broad population of dogs citronella collars are more likely to be effective. Again, this may seem counter-intuitive, but those are the facts.

How many hours of the day are you gone? If it's not much more than 8 hours, then keeping him in the house would be your most effective and fool-proof option and I'm sure he won't have a problem with it (better than stressing about who is trying to invade his territory all day). It would certainly have to be weighed up against a collar, which truthfully, most dogs will habituate to fairly quickly. If you decide to use a collar any reputable dealer should be able to provide you with the right sized collar. Some research has indicated that citronella spray collars are more effective than electric shock collars. Even scentless spray collars are effective. Intermittent use of the collar reduces the amount of habituation, but some habituation will always occur: http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/...cNo=20013111307

For the issue with the visiting cat, it would be much easier just to use management (crates, doors etc) as it is only a temporary situation. If you cannot work with someone directly, then settle on a compromise. My suggestion would be to walk on-leash and avoid areas where other dogs play off-leash frequently (although you will need to be prepared for off-leash dogs just about anywhere). You can use your clicker to teach calm behaviours around other dogs. You start off at some distance from another dog (preferably one who is under the control of someone who is aware of what you are doing and helping you). I like to start by teaching the dog that it is OK to look at other dogs without reacting, you simply click and treat when your dog is looking at the other dog and not growling/lunging/barking etc Use a very high rate of reinforcement (click/treat often, keep your hand loaded with small, soft treats). I would also teach him a formal heel - look up at you and move with you. It doesn't need to be pretty, just functional. This is for when another dog gets too close and you want to move off without fuss. As your dog gets very good at both looking at other dogs (on a loose leash) without reacting, and heeling around other dogs, you can start to move closer. It is very helpful if you are working with someone who has their dog under control and is working with you, because you can set your dog up to succeed by manipulating the distance between the dogs. At this point I like to throw in other behaviours that will (a) be useful around other dogs and (b) keep the dog "thinking" instead of "reacting". Sit, down, stay and the recall are at the top of the list. I spend a lot of time working on recalls (on leash at first). Remember to always set your dog up for success. If you aren't getting the behaviour you want, don't wave useless bits of meat around under your dog's nose, make it easier instead - get some distance, reduce the distractions, take a short break somewhere quiet, maybe come back later. Work in short, frequent sessions. When I do this with a class I have all the dogs in their cars and bring them out individually or in very small groups for 3-5 minutes at a time when it is their turn. Over an hour they will have 4-5 of these 3-5 minute sessions in total.

Hi Sibylle, are you able to travel to Hobart? I don't know of anyone in the Huon who would be able to help. Dr Katrina Warren does consults at Tasmanian Animal Hospitals in Kingston. Aidan

One of the problems with dogs that devour your hand with the treat is that they actually get the treat. If you can teach him to target the palm of your hand with no treat in it, you can teach him to be gentle around your hands. Next, have him take a leaf or something (not food) from the palm of your hand. When he can do that, try a really boring piece of food after a meal (say, a piece of vegetable or something he doesn't care much for).

Some GSDs are pretty vocal, especially when they get excited or anxious. Certain lines are worse than others. I managed to get about 5 years out of mine before she started to become vocal, simply by making sure that I never reinforced her vocalisations. She never, ever got what she wanted if she was making a noise. As soon as she was quiet, I praised her and she got what she was after. Realistically, this can only be successful for so long before you accidentally reinforce whining, or worse, become complacent or busy and let a few through to the keeper. Still, the vocalisation only increased a little until a big life change (birth of my daughter) changed the picture quite a lot. Suddenly I didn't have a life devoted to doing stuff with my dogs. I still make a considerable effort, but they don't come first any more and they know it! Any stress or anxiety will make the problem worse. It is noticeably worse if, say, we have a period of inclement weather and I don't walk my GSD for a few nights. The next time she hears me set the crate up in the car, the shrieking begins. At least I know she is excited! I am lucky in that there are still only a few situations where this happens. Some are easier to deal with than others. If I have to set the crate up in the car, she will shriek at the side gate by the car-port in anticipation. There isn't much I can do about this (that is practical), but I CAN train her to shut up as I approach the gate. I just stop approaching the gate while she is making noise, and resume the approach and let her out when she is quiet. Similarly when we arrive at our destination. I will not get out of the car until she is quiet. First lesson learned. Let's say she whines while I am out of the car, I won't open the tail-gate until she is quiet. Second lesson learned. Let's say I can get out of the car and open the tail-gate, and then she starts whining - I let my other dog out and shut the tail-gate again until she is quiet. Third lesson learned, next she has to be quiet before I open the crate, then after she is out of the car, then as we begin our journey etc At least we can arrive somewhere without too much fan-fare. Getting there is another story, but given my lack of time and resources I have just decided to put up with some whining on the journey to our destination. I should probably give her something to chew and see if that keeps her quiet, but it's remarkable how much something will stop bothering you when you've decided to accept it as part of a compromise. If she is being walked or trained a lot it isn't really a problem, so I just consider some amount of whining in those trickier situations to be useful feedback and get on with giving my dogs as much recreation and training as I can manage.

Yeah, sedatives. Apart from that, good, strong enclosures. You can use controlled set-ups to train just about any behaviour you want, but making it a permanent change which is generalised to a wide variety of different situations takes considerably more work and would not be practical. Some of those genes were wired with the wrong fuses, right?

Pups growl because it works for them. You both want the pig's ear, pup growls, he gets to keep it - problem solved as far as pup is concerned. It's very normal dog behavior, regardless of rank. So your options are to: - make it stop working by either putting up with the bites and always taking the ear or punishing the growling and any subsequent escalations in aggressive behavior - give him an option, show him a different, more polite behavior so that he gets what he wants, then ease him onto a schedule where he gets what he wants some of the time, but not all of the time At this early stage it's such a simple thing to teach them to "give" anything simply by presenting them with something of equal or greater value - say, another pig's ear. Give him a pig's ear, let him chew it for a few seconds, then present another pig's ear. Don't give him the second pig's ear until he has dropped the first pig's ear (might take a while, or you might need to start with two mismatched items so that the item in your hand is preferable). Repeat several more times, then leave him alone with ONE of the pig's ears. Do this every so often, you might want to cut a pig's ear in half or even into 3 strips so that you aren't over-feeding pig's ears, or do it with small raw bones or frozen mince blocks - something practical. When he reliably gives up the ear, put the cue on - "give" or "spit it out" seem appropriate. Triangle of Temptation seems popular on this forum and from what I can see it looks like a useful exercise. The "Doggy Zen" exercise is an old stand-by that you should probably do regardless of anything else. Sue Ailsby's Training Levels (found on her website, google it) has an excellent progression for Doggy Zen. Doggy Zen is essentially "to get the good thing, you must give it up".

Yeah, I'm sure that's not cool but obviously I gave up trying to be cool as soon as we got the Volvo (still the best dog carrier on the market!) Thanks for the kind words!

Hey - that's my name! I'm not affiliated with Urbandogz but our training is similar (positive reinforcement). If you're not into that then you won't like what I do, and honestly, I have no interest in trying to change anyone's feelings about positive training/dominance/corrections/UFOs/war in Iraq or anything else... Great if people will listen, but it's not a problem if they don't agree with me. What I do each summer is put a project together and tackle a problem that no-one seems to have an effective, consistently demonstrable solution for that 99% of the population can use (selfishly, this is almost always for a problem I have with one of my own dogs). I doubt I haver ever or will ever fully achieve my own goals, but we have had some very pleasing results with reactivity towards people on bikes and other dogs. Worth sharing, I thought. The aggression towards other dogs project is the one closest to my own heart, and I know that I have a very effective solution, but you do have to commit to doing things "my way" and you can't mess around with it. The last thing I want is to waste my time with someone who can't follow instructions or thinks they can improve "on the fly" what I have spent countless hours trying to perfect. This is a labour of love, after all - my pet project. Sorry if I caused any embarrassment by replying to a post asking about me, but this is the internet and I'm sure you were aware of that possibility. There are testimonials on my website, although I'm not sure how applicable they are as only a couple of those people have worked with me in person.