Aidan

Do you train her in play drive inside the house? We get more of what we reinforce, which is a double-edged sword. If you have a dog who will "switch on" any time, any place, then it's harder to have a dog who switches off when time and place suggest it appropriate. As part of my routine, and my rules of daily life, the house is a quiet place. The dogs lay on mats, or in crates. If they want to chase cats (and one of my dogs is an avid cat chaser, in a friendly and playful way), they can do that outside. When my working line GSD came to me as a pup she was very interested in the cats and a few weeks later I was quite certain they were going to end up on the menu. I clicker trained the cats to find somewhere out of reach and to sit still. I trained the pup to do calm, obedient things around the cats. Pretty soon they became part of the family and each accepted the other (and in fact, they made up their own rules of engagement and get along extraordinarily well). I also gave the cats plenty of escape options so that chasing the cats in the house was never really reinforced. They would either go up high and sit still, or slip through a door, which would be held open using a 150mm cabin hook so that only the cats could get through. Chasing them inside was never any fun. I clicker trained the cats to go high and sit still, cats are quite easy to train and if it works for them they will do something reliably. I must admit, one dog and one cat do have a game they enjoy in the living room, where the cat will sit on top of a tall wine rack and flick her tail, then scuttle along the window sills and behind the couch. The dog will chase, but when the cat gets to the TV the game stops. They figured this out themselves and it didn't do any harm so I have let it happen, in fact I think it is quite healthy and reinforces boundaries. If the dog ever gets vocal or tries to jump up (which might scratch the walls), I pop her in her crate. It doesn't happen very often so I guess the time-out is reasonably effective. I also like to call her to me, or have her drop every so often during this game. Just to use this distraction. Anyway, you asked for thoughts on the e-collar for two weeks? I'm not sure how you plan to use it. What criteria will you use and what training will it complement? Hitting the button in the hopes of "kicking her out of prey drive" sounds a bit too wishful to me, particularly if you are not in the room and are going off what you can hear. A dog in full prey drive will put up with an awful lot of pain sometimes. As you have noted, several bleeding muzzles hasn't done anything to curtail the problem so far so you will have to be smart about it. I have read on this forum that corrections suppress drive, which is overly simplified, corrections can be used to increase drive. We always have to look at operant and respondent outcomes first. It might be a longer term plan, but I would be looking at ways to set up the environment in your favour (you already have baby gates; high cat trees and cabin hooks on doors are other options), use time-outs (immediately takes the dog out of drive with no risk), and reinforce calm behaviour around the cats, and also whenever indoors. Use food instead of play (indoors), no sense in trying to keep a "calm inside the house rule" if you're the one who breaks it!

I guess she's just not ready. Back up a few steps and start logging more repetitions, add distractions carefully so that she continues to succeed. Get to the point where it's just like a real trial, but with more distractions and she has to do it longer. Then enter another trial. Have you heard of the "300 Peck Method"?

Just a small concern about treadmills where used to excess, because they pull the legs back they don't exercise the muscles at the back of the legs and hips as much as the muscles at the front of the legs and hips. This could lead to a range of problems from inefficient body mechanics, to joint pain. As a powerlifter, I know how painful muscle imbalances can be when you overdevelop muscles on one side of a joint relative to the other. I doubt this is a problem vets will ever see a lot of, but I have been hearing about people (mostly Cesar Millan fans in big cities) who run their dogs on the treadmill for an hour every day, but never take them outside for a walk.

It won't be a problem. Just be clear about who is getting the click, which is not hard, just don't give a treat to the dog who you didn't click. They soon figure out the one who is getting the attention from you is the one who is being clicked.

They have different temperaments, slightly different drives, but learn pretty much exactly the same way. Not Whippets or Kelpies, but this video features Aussie Shepherds and a Greyhound trained the same way. If you think sighthounds aren't great at tricks, check out what this greyhound can do! About 4 minutes in, skipping, turning somersaults, walking on FRONT legs, bouncing like a kangaroo - it's amazing: http://www.positivepetzine.com/jay_sisler

I don't think Frawley is any sort of expert on training with markers, nor learning theory. What sort of training are you doing, I might be able to recommend something from someone with expertise in that area?

Find a puppy class, it is an excellent way to provide socialisation with other puppies, people and a new place and your instructor will show you how to train some basic things. Your local vet or obedience club are the first places to look. Socialisation is vitally important and the hands-on instruction will be beneficial in getting you off on the right foot. It is very rare to see anyone use a correction collar on a puppy these days, even amongst trainers who do use them with adult dogs. You need to build your relationship and teach pup how to "learn to earn". You may even find you never use a correction collar, this is becoming increasingly common.

Same, but when you think it is prudent to have medical tests done or suspect that medication may need to be prescribed then a vet behaviourist is your best bet.

They sometimes pop up on eBay. I bought Booth and Dildei's "Schutzhund Obedience" from someone locally, if I recall it was from Jenny Ireland?

It's not bad, but I would consider it to be a problem. Once you have done the basic "doggy zen" exercise, you then have both dogs in a sit side by side. Give one dog a treat, then the other so long as they don't try to butt in. When they can do that with no problems, you can do stuff like make them wait with treats in front of them until released to eat. When that sort of thing is easy, toss kibbles on the ground so that you keep the dogs eating about 5' away from each other, then bring them closer together. If you see any signs of anxiety any time, end the exercise. Take a break, then back it up a few steps and try again. Ensure everyone is safe at all times, don't push it.

This doesn't answer the question, but I think a good dog trainer should know when to refer to a qualified vet or veterinary behaviourist simply because they know what to look for medically if that may be contributing to the behaviour problem. How to recognise someone's expertise is very difficult. Referrals are good, but plenty of hacks can and do get referrals. I'm not always impressed by results unless they are longer term. There are lots of "quick fixes" in dog training that can be misconstrued as results. Even worse, trainers who can sell their mumbo-jumbo so well the client becomes enamoured with them and raves about what they have learned, despite the fact that nothing has really changed except their perspective. What the client wants comes into it. Square pegs and round holes and all that.

Let me get this straight, there is you, the new foster, and one of your existing dogs all on the couch together, and both dogs have a bit of a grumble? If the foster isn't staying long then it's probably easiest to just have one in the crate and let them take turns. That's the laziest thing you could possibly do, so I'm in favour of it! If you want them to be able to do this and the foster might stay a while, then the consequence of grumbling could be getting put in the crate, or if they are trained really well, to stay on a mat for a while. It doesn't need to be long, a couple of minutes. The idea is to provide a 'cost' for the action, but not to increase anxiety, so keep it all low key and calm. How bad is the food guarding? Sounds like a bit of resource guarder. I would want to be able to give one dog a treat, then the other, sitting next to each other. It's the "doggy zen" thing, "to get the thing, I must show some self-control". The basic doggy zen exercise is a good place to start.

Not let the "bad guy" move. That's pretty defiant.

But from your neighbour's perspective, surely there is less noise pollution when he is barking from inside your home than from outside? I'll let someone with more experience with this sort of collar discuss trouble-shooting, but are you certain that it is working? Have you tested it on your arm?

Has anyone read the new Karen Pryor book "Reaching the Animal Mind"? It has some interesting anecdotes about this sort of thing across a variety of species.

I don't train in a Skinner box so I could always quite reasonably make the assumption that no two repetitions are identical, but at the same time I also accept that even if all other things were equal, that sometimes the dog is just having a "moment". I have "moments" all the time, even during tasks where I am well trained. I have many more "moments" than my dogs, that's for sure! I work mostly with aggressive or reactive dogs, so I am never really surprised when a client's dog cannot do something very simple that has been repeated many times in similar situations. You quite often find that something has happened, maybe on the way to class, or earlier in the day, or even in the dog's week. Some dogs really dislike a change of routine, particularly if it means they get a bit neglected. It doesn't really matter, we can always back up a step or two and quickly remedy the problem, in fact frequently the behaviour will end up stronger for it.

Great thread! I wish more people understood this.

I agree with K9 Force's comment about mental stimulation, particularly with dogs who don't walk well on leash naturally. I treat "walking on a loose leash" and "heeling in obedience class" as two different behaviours (which they are). Teaching a lab to heel with a carefully placed food lure which later becomes a hand signal is like shooting fish in a barrel. You can then pretty it up with the clicker if necessary.

Oh dear . Has he been for a Vet check? I would do that first and would think hard and fast before I'd consider applying aversives on a dog that has begun the behaviour due to old age. Agreed. An anti-bark collar would never be my first step anyway, but especially not for an ageing dog who previously was not a nuisance barker.

Hi Sibylle, I think this is the sort of problem that is most frustrating for people, when the dog appears happy and then "suddenly" becomes aggressive. In reality, the signs are there a long time before the attack but can often be hard to spot. What I would probably do if you were to see me would be to put you into a small class where I have a mix of friendly and not so friendly dogs, then I would show you how to "shape" nice greetings on-leash that don't end in an attack. I would want to see your dog become comfortable meeting a range of dogs, and for your dog to learn that being polite works best. I'm not sure where the forum moderators would draw the line on self-promotion, and I certainly haven't come here to drum up business (in fact I don't have any openings at the moment), so I will PM you if I can figure out how to do that. The small classes are inexpensive, but I won't have a spot until late September.

Socialisation, lots of it! If you want a training plan this is excellent for a future obedience or agility competitor: http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/%20Dog1/levels.html

Good to hear, and good fencing too! In that case, just work on being able to work with her with that sort of distraction. When you can get up to Level 10 distractions, you should have no trouble being able to call her away from the fence from inside the house. The novelty will probably wear off a little over time, too. Just check regularly that neither dog is trying to dig under the fence.

Citronella is a repellent. It has very low toxicity and is 'GRAS' (generally regarded as safe). http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/biopesticide...heet_021901.htm It can irritate skin, and certainly some individuals are predisposed to having a reaction to it. I also have concerns about cheap oils, particularly where pets are concerned because manufacturers (particularly in some parts of the world) seem to not care about the welfare of our pets. Citronella may not be the problem. Stick with reputable manufacturers.

Is she being territorial or just interested? What sort of fence have you got? One of my dogs was notorious for jumping up at the fence to look at the neighbour's dog. I fenced off a separate section of the yard which solved the problem instantly, not always a practical solution though (I had more than one reason to fence off that section at the time). Keeping your dog inside with you might be an option, at least until you are able to train with that sort of distraction. You can "shape" your dog to do something more acceptable than whatever it is he is doing now, but you can't just jump straight into a Level 10 distraction and expect results. Doing what I have suggested above is your first step.

It's called a "distraction". The training does not end when the dog can come, sit, drop and stay in class. Sooner or later you have to venture out into the real world and then distractions bring all your training unstuck. My preferred method is to introduce distractions carefully, always ensuring that my dog is set up for success and reinforcing that success. You can do that by putting one of your dogs inside, taking the other dog outside on-leash, and working on your obedience at the opposite end of the yard to the neighbour with the Bull Arab pup. Slowly move closer, being careful to ensure success all the way. Think of distractions as being on a sliding scale. Right now your dogs can deal with a Level 1 distraction. Having both dogs outside and a new pup behind the fence is putting them into a Level 10 distraction. Removing one dog reduces it to Level 7. Having the remaining dog on leash reduces it to Level 5. Working on the opposite end of the yard reduces it to Level 3 - you're getting there, you will probably get some results. Pretty soon THAT dog can deal with a Level 4 distraction, so you move a little closer. Over time he will be able to deal with Level 5, so you move closer. When he can deal with Level 7, try him off leash. Does that make sense? Don't take it personally, I'm sure they still love you! This is just how it works.