Aidan

Good on you for doing the research, just make sure your conclusions aren't biased by what you really want (today). Yes, there are things you can do that will give you the best chance of success. I've already mentioned that "dominance theory" is the leadership method most reported in failed inter-dog relationships, and suggested some things you should very strongly condition. I had someone ask me exactly the same question about 18 months ago. I gave the same answers. They discounted my advice, went through a lot of heart-ache, and now one of the dogs has been rehomed. I rang them up and said "I TOLD YOU SO!!!!!!!" (just kidding about the last bit, but you know I wanted to!)

If you were getting more of what you were clicking, then it wouldn't have been any faster to reward in position. How do you know? (Genuine question!) I definitely was getting more of what I was clicking. But perhaps I would have got more even faster if I'd rewarded in position? Haha, I know what you're getting at and I only KNOW the answer IF it is true that you were getting more of what you were clicking and not "more of moving to where the food was coming from" instead. I suppose there is some slight advantage to having the dog stay in position after the click, but only in that it reduces the time taken to get into the correct position. If you add it up and calculate how long it took you to get the finished product you probably could have got a dozen or so more clicked responses in there for the same amount of time. Not really a big deal.

Statistically speaking, an alarmingly high number of horror stories are from owners who report that they use a "dominance theory" approach to dog training. Easy enough to say that "those ones got it wrong", but I'm sure they all thought they got it right and many of them no doubt still do, despite the evidence. Anecdotal evidence suggests that it might be more successful in a much larger pack (say, 7-10 dogs). Again, statistically speaking, fatal dog fights are most likely to occur between littermates of the same sex. From a practical point of view, if you plan to separate the dogs continuously you make an enormous amount of extra work just providing basic care and social contact. This could soon turn into a nightmare if one or both dogs isn't suited to this sort of living. There isn't much upside to this for you OR the dogs. If you are hell-bent on doing this then you need to focus on conditioning very reliable responses to commands to go to place (e.g crate or bed), drop, and recall. To be honest, living with a dog who will fight and working with a lot of dogs who will fight, I can't imagine why ANYONE would entertain the idea of willingly entering into an arrangement that produces a statistically higher probability of it occurring. Better to wait 18 months between pups, not only do you lower the risks dramatically, you get to enjoy puppies for TWICE AS LONG!

If you were getting more of what you were clicking, then it wouldn't have been any faster to reward in position.

Some dogs are particularly sensitive to a diet low in the amino acid l-tryptophan. Foods that list Corn (or "Maize") in their top ingredients should be avoided if you have one of these dogs. If your dog is reactive, has difficulty relaxing, or suffers from any form of anxiety then these are possible signs that you should avoid corn-based foods.

It's possible for ANYTHING from click to reward to be reinforced. What is IMPORTANT is what is being increased or maintained. If the thing you clicked is being increased or maintained, you got what you wanted. If, between click and treat, your dog decides to bite a little old lady then hump your leg, probably best not to give the treat...

Sounds like you've already solved the problem. Now all you need to do is keep up your new habit. From a dog trainer's perspective, I avoid any food with corn as it's main protein source. Being deficient in the amino acid l-tryptophan, it can cause behaviour problems.

So you're getting a pretty good handle on drive-building? You can see that this dopamine release is respondent behaviour (one of many respondents associated with drive), you can condition certain stimuli to 'turn it on' (Classical Conditioning), which 'establishes operations', then you can use consequences to shape which operants are expressed whilst the dog is in drive, thus gaining some control. Pretty useful stuff, hey? It works on people, too. Think of the little rituals we follow before a sports game or other performance. The smell of Deep Heat gets my adrenaline flowing now, all those stinking change-room psyche-ups before rugby. Coach whips us up into a state so that we can do things that would otherwise result in someone getting arrested for violent assault. It's all very deliberate.

You've been speaking to the wrong people. Corrections can be used to suppress drive, they can also be used to increase drive.

Yes, in Germany at least and possibly elsewhere. That's a good idea, I like the twist. The more I think about it, the more I think it needs to be a "slalom" event, which would also lend itself to being either a team or singles event. Another idea, get hold of a few of those giant fans that movie studios use, put them on some sort of randomised switching device so they blow in different directions at different times, then have the dog keep a mob of balls inside lines. It could be kind of like German 'HGH' style herding then, the GSDs would love it.

I am embarassed to admit how many balls we have lost this way Even with a muzzle on, Sabella will always find a way to destroy a ball eventually.

That's still amazing, make sure you have the camera ready in case she ever nails it!

Hands-Free Training Belt - makes everything a bit easier.

A bit of control work around balls might be just the ticket then Limit her options in how she interacts with the ball at first (hold it, put your foot on it etc), once I nutted that bit out it was a lot easier to work more freely with the ball with my ball obsessed girl.

How is that going? I can't even do that!

Some of the spontaneous stuff they do can be amazing to watch. Our yard has lots of kids stuff in it, watching Sabella problem solve to get her ball out from underneath the trampoline or when it is wedged between the swing-set and fence demonstrates a remarkable level of intelligence that you'd otherwise probably never really witness. That is one of the things about "Treibball" that I think is missing, although the Germans seem very open to the idea of introducing new challenges within the sport.

Maybe try this? http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=187007 A "staffy ball" might be a good idea. Not for a long while though, I'd guess. Lots of healing to do.

Has anyone had a look at Treibball yet? http://blog.johannthedog.com/2009/04/treibball.html I've been playing little games with one of my dogs using soccer and gym balls for a while now, she loves it and I certainly have clients with dogs who would love it. Then I find out those clever Germans have been doing this as a sport since 2003! There isn't much on the internet about this, a few videos on YouTube and some websites that don't translate very well. If anyone knows more about it, please contribute to this thread. Other suggestions for 'sport' for herding dogs using balls also welcomed. I've been working on passing the ball back and forth along the ground and also in the air (Sabella has a surprising amount of control over the ball bouncing it with her muzzle if I throw it to her). We've started working on a 'retrieve', dribbling the ball back to me on cue from a distance. I've had ideas about running a modified agility course, dribbling a ball. Think of agility poles set up a bit like a slalom course, or running through a chute. Sabella has spontaneously manipulated the ball from underneath the trampoline in the back-yard, while the ball is on top of the trampoline. I've had visions of setting a ball on top of a suspended tarp and having her move the ball along the tarp from underneath. Just a few crazy ideas you might have some fun with...

Good observation What we call prey drive would certainly include a whole bunch of respondent behaviours, including release of adrenaline. This is important to note because these [respondents] will not be controlled by consequences in the same way that operant behaviours (such as running) are. A lot of it is learning by association.

Yes, that would be a terrible thing, I'm sorry you had to go through that. There are many, many variables. It is not often that I recommend a muzzle for walking (more often in controlled environments), it depends on the dog. Especially if the dog is known to have an inhibited bite and normal ritualised aggression (as scary as that can be), there is really no need for a muzzle in that instance. It does inhibit what would otherwise be considered "normal" communication (inhibited bites are a part of normal communication even if people don't like seeing it). Please let me be clear, this next question is not a disagreement of opinion, I'm simply seeking your opinion because I am interested. Why is it that you think your dog would have been better off unmuzzled in this particular instance?

Dogs do what works for them, whether we teach it intentionally or not.

Haha, so now you know what a shackle is P.S I haven't forgotten about the cable and parts, I'm just trying to locate all the bits that I know I have... somewhere...

I'm really only concerned that my dogs have as much health and happiness as I am able to provide while living a normal life. I understand that I only have so much control over these things, and that compromise is necessary in some areas. I'm not sure that anything a responsible owner does can be quantified except to set a minimum standard of care. The rest must come from conscience.

Definitely a police matter (being threatened with a weapon, doesn't matter if she's elderly) and a council matter (an out of control aggressive dog).