Jumabaar

Thanks!! It thought I saw an ESS on a walk and I am guessing it was working line- it was one of those double take moments where I immediately thought ESS but then doubted myself

I would probably use paw paw over aloe vera although the dogs do enjoy licking it I have found that they do leave a layer of it on the skin, regardless of them licking at it. You could also try an oatmeal compress if the dog is itchy or irritated by the rash.

What height is a working ESS generally? I was trying to work it out but I couldn't find much infer other than the standard- which I assume would be more for the Show ESS.

+1

All I can say is- Typical Kelpie Mine think they are lap dogs and loooooove snoozing in my chair!! The friend I was talking about with rescues has Kelpie x, Kelpie and now a Foxie x. They are all terrific tuggers and calm at home. She found the last two through flyball.org.au where potential flyball dog (aka drivey and generally tuggy) get advertised. I hope you find the perfect dog for your situation!!

My heart really does go out to you right now I hope he responds.

Love it

I was just thinking the exact same thing raz...there was no need to be so rude to the lady, I'm sure she was just being concerned for the health of your puppy. Yes, BM. It's a great opportunity to turn around and talk to people about pet ownership but I question why this person gets stopped so often and asked if the pup is vax'd. sounds like total bullshit to me - either that or the puppy is just too young to be out. Why else would people keep asking? Yes a very rude reponse, but as dog owners it is up to us to educate the 'general public' not further encourage the idea that all dog people are rabid. Maybe the dog owner was just having a bad day. No matter how bad a day I am having I wouldn't say that- so I don't think having a bad day is an excuse for using such language (and I don't think people should be offering that up as an excuse either)!!! Yes it was wrong of you to talk like that. I have asked people in the past if their pup is vaccinated and the answer has been no (and not only once either)!! So with a little advice said pups have been taken to the vet where they have also received other valuable advice. So in future just think that by answering nicely that person will continue to ask if other pups have been vaccinated and you may indirectly save a pup from getting sick. If you behave like you did today that cycle will stop and other people with pups that do need education will not receive it. Thats just my opinion, I will continue to ask because I am genuinely interested for the dogs sake.

Do you mean 'TornSocks' or a profile something like that? if yes, i've read those threads. If not, i'd be very appreciative of the name when/if you remember. taa. I'm not against Pet Insurance, i am however against being 'marketed to' at a vet visit that i have specifically arranged and paid for, with the purpose of a general health check along with a specific focus of Wilbur's mouth. I have approached a pet insurance company for more information which i may or may not take further and initiate a policy. I like to make independent choices without pressure from a vet who may or may not have an economic or other arrangement with the insurance company to 'encourage' pet owners to invest in insurance; the lack of transparency of such arrangements rankles me. I totally agree you have gotten your money's worth with claims of $7000, but i'm not entirely sure yet, that it's worth my while to invest rather than just putting money away 'just in case'...but i'm still analysing what's the best course of action for us long term. i applied online for an info pack of one pet insurance company. I had barely hit 'enter' of the online request form (i'm talking less than 10 seconds) when the phone rang; guess who it was? I told the lovely lady, firmly (while laughing at the irony of the situation) that the reason i applied for the info pack online was because i didn't want to interface with anyone from the insurance company and that when and if i was ready to ask questions or apply for a policy i'd be more than happy to interface with someone but until that time i'd appreciate it i wasn't continually contacted. I had barely finished speaking when she asked if i would like her to ring back when the info pack arrived for her to walk me through it i thanked her politely but declined Just with regards to a vet getting kick backs- as far as I know they don't. It is being heavily marketed because it is a relatively new product that many customers wouldn't know about and it has saved many dogs lives. Its nice to know when a dog has insurance because as a vet you can offer the very best care without having as many financial limitations that limit your ability to quickly diagnose and offer the best treatment. Yes this is possible without insurance but vets can't assume either way so offering insurance is a great method of ensuring you can give your patients the best care you possibly can. It probably sounds now that I am marketing to you . I promise I have nothing to do with any insurance company, I have just seen many pets where we have had financial constraints when it comes to treatment- and I am a big sook when it comes to dogs

But if you want to get into herding there is not point getting a pointer either?? You may as well maximise your chances by getting a kelpie from the right lines... I do agility for the social aspect so will chose dogs that allow me to do agility, no point getting a dog that won't even give me a chance at doing what I want. i.e. a deer hound The breeds appropriate for someone who says they would like to do agility (off the top of my head) Pap Jack russell BC (ANKC or short hairs working- sorry don't know the appropriate registry) Kelpie (ANKS/WKC) Coolie CKCS GSP Fox Terrier Sheltie Border Terrier OES Beagle Poodle- all varieties Nova Scotia Whippet Dally working ESS And the list goes on. The OP has not said they want a gun agility dog that is going to win everything. They have decided they want to do a fun sport with a great social aspect so why not look at breeds/lines that will allow them to do this. Some of these breeds will be easier to pick the sporting lines than others but all would be physically capable. There are breeds that in my opinion should NOT be on that list so why not be upfront and say that they shouldn't take wanting to do dog sports into consideration? As well as considering how much grooming they want to do, what personality they are looking for etc- there is a big variety in size shape and personalty right there of dogs that do dog sports so going out and trying to increase your chance of getting the right dog is something that should be commended. If it doesn't work out the perhaps look at other sports that might tickle your/their fancy.

From what I remember Kaos has quite nice structure and proportion which is probably more important than actual size. But it does show you need the whole package to really compete. (The problem with my dogs package it the handler lol)

I chose the breed that I wanted- Kelpie because I had one as a kid, and wanted another. It met my needs- being a medium sized short coated dog, with enough drive to do some dog sports with although my first priority was having a pet. Then I researched different lines, and contacted a breeder that is already involved in the sports I was interested in (agility and obedience) for a suitable pup. And it went from there. It is important to look at lines as much as breed. There are lines of ANKC registered Kelpies that are completely unsuitable to doing agility and flyball so this is really important. By going to a good breeder and describing what you want to do with your newest addition, as well as the personalities of your current dogs it should be possible to find a nice match. That all being said- my friend has three rescue dogs, got them all at aprox 1yr of age and has 3 VERY successful sports dogs. They have all been through foster homes that are experienced in Dog sports, so they knew that the dog had been temperament tested, and had been in care long enough to show their true personality and drive. It is also important to remember structure wherever you get your pup from. A good book to look at is Structure in Action by Pat Hastings, to ensure you get a dog that is physically capable of doing the tasks you want it to without putting pressure on its body. This goes for a pup or rescue dog that you get- dogs with poor structure get injured and struggle to perform at their peak so it is only fair to make sure that you get a dog that won't suffer. I have had a mixed reaction to my latest additions- being obnoxious kelpie pups I made sure that the older dogs were not bothered by pups being in their face all the time, so I gave them all time outs behind the baby gate and ensured I was around for all the interactions, so I could teach the pup not to get in the older dogs faces. It really depends on the dogs you already have, and what type of dog you introduce. So long as you are respectful of your older dog desire for time out, and ensure they don't get forgotten adding another member to your pack should be a positive experience. One of my girls ignored them, one boy had mini freak outs so I had to be the one to keep him safe so to speak. Now that they have integrated and everyone knows the rules they are all happy to hang out all the time.

I generally put my pups in a backpack (on my chest) and just go for a walk around the block. This means they get to see cars, people and other animals without interacting with them, but can see they are part of 'normal' life. You don't need to go to a dog park to socialise, there is more than enough interesting sights for your pup to get used to on a normal suburban block

Thank you both for your input. Fordogs, i've already read the related threads on DOL; they were most informative, thanks for the suggestion though. My position, with information i've found from various sources, is that the procedure is presented as 'preventive' but in no way is preventive - there is no a) no quantitative data supporting its validity as preventive and b) Wilbur presents no problems at this time. The vet in question is one of the hired vets from a two-principal-vet multi locational practice (there are approximately 10 vets who have earned various degrees and level of qualification.) I'm not sure that she was following practice protocol regarding pushing products and procedures or not, however I will be asking for another vet when I go back for vaccinations in two week; if i am 'marketed to' again i shall start looking for another service provider. There were other issues that i had with the visit; i felt highly 'marketed at' re food and pet insurance. Additionally when i asked her about the information i had found regarding Wilbur's overbite, she couldn't conform it; her response was "i don't know". Perhaps i was asking too much of her, but I didn't think it would be outside a vets knowledge base to verify whether or not the mandible is a very slow growing bone that can take up to 10 months to fully develop; maybe her degree was less specific in the area of canine anatomy?? who knows. Her response was that in her experience (which of course has its limits) overbites and underbites never self correct. I responded that I was aware that underbites don't self correct but have heard from a number of sources that overbites can and do self correct. I was struck at the vets reluctance to enter into conversation about these issues with me; rather she gave her opinions without any supporting data; when i questioned her, she didn't/wouldn't/couldn't/failed to respond further. Am i being too picky in thinking an opinion, even an educated one, has its limitations unless supported by evidence from rigorous research? For me, as an educated professional, qualitative and quantitative evidence is very important in justifying my position on any given issue in my (or any) domain. I would never discuss an issue with a client without presenting the available data that justifies the position I have taken or in other words my educated opinion would come with the relevant data as I would never expect a client to accept my educated opinion on its own or assume that my educated opinion has been informed with up to date with current research. In the past when I have a vet that didn't know the answer their solution has been to investigate- look in text books, email other more knowledgeable people etc. Vets are taught the basics, but are also taught where to look when they don't know something because lets face it- it is going to happen. It sounds like you would like a veterinarian that is going to go the extra mile (do the research so that they can answer your questions properly)- that is not being unreasonable BUT you won't necessarily get that from every veterinarian you meet- simply because the average pet owner will just accept what they are being told. This doesn't make them a bad vet- it just makes them an average one. I would ask around here on DOL to find a veterinarian who is keeping up to date with everything. I use a holistic vet with my dogs because they are up to date with the latest research and are very proactive in keeping dogs healthy rather than reactive. However at the same time they don't do this with heaps of procedures, more focusing on regular check ups, good diet and exercise. I am thinking this is the type of vet/practice you are looking for?? They are out there!! You just need to find one.

Thank you both for your input. Fordogs, i've already read the related threads on DOL; they were most informative, thanks for the suggestion though. My position, with information i've found from various sources, is that the procedure is presented as 'preventive' but in no way is preventive - there is no a) no quantitative data supporting its validity as preventive and b) Wilbur presents no problems at this time. The vet in question is one of the hired vets from a two-principal-vet multi locational practice (there are approximately 10 vets who have earned various degrees and level of qualification.) I'm not sure that she was following practice protocol regarding pushing products and procedures or not, however I will be asking for another vet when I go back for vaccinations in two week; if i am 'marketed to' again i shall start looking for another service provider. There were other issues that i had with the visit; i felt highly 'marketed at' re food and pet insurance. Additionally when i asked her about the information i had found regarding Wilbur's overbite, she couldn't conform it; her response was "i don't know". Perhaps i was asking too much of her, but I didn't think it would be outside a vets knowledge base to verify whether or not the mandible is a very slow growing bone that can take up to 10 months to fully develop; maybe her degree was less specific in the area of canine anatomy?? who knows. Her response was that in her experience (which of course has its limits) overbites and underbites never self correct. I responded that I was aware that underbites don't self correct but have heard from a number of sources that overbites can and do self correct. I was struck at the vets reluctance to enter into conversation about these issues with me; rather she gave her opinions without any supporting data; when i questioned her, she didn't/wouldn't/couldn't/failed to respond further. Am i being too picky in thinking an opinion, even an educated one, has its limitations unless supported by evidence from rigorous research? For me, as an educated professional, qualitative and quantitative evidence is very important in justifying my position on any given issue in my (or any) domain. I would never discuss an issue with a client without presenting the available data that justifies the position I have taken or in other words my educated opinion would come with the relevant data as I would never expect a client to accept my educated opinion on its own or assume that my educated opinion has been informed with up to date with current research. In the past when I have a vet that didn't know the answer their solution has been to investigate- look in text books, email other more knowledgeable people etc. Vets are taught the basics, but are also taught where to look when they don't know something because lets face it- it is going to happen. It sounds like you would like a veterinarian that is going to go the extra mile- that is not being unreasonable BUT you won't necessarily get that from every veterinarian you meet- simply because the average pet owner will just accept what they are being told.

I agree- go and find a vet who is not going to just see a lab and assume it will have hip problems later in life. I am going to go out on a limb and assume that any future health problems will also be diagnosed based on breed . You have every right to feel uncomfortable about a diagnosis made with no testing as it is completely incorrect. Please talk the manager at your clinic about this as well as your regular veterinarian to ensure other people do not get the wrong advice!!

Just regarding the tonsillitis- from experience Abby who has had it twice. The first time she didn't go off food (not surprising when she didn't go off food with a pin in the roof of her mouth!) she has a very slight temp, a slight change in personality- difficult to train and just plain silly. When we looked in her throat you could see how red and inflamed it was. I had my wisdom teeth out the day after her diagnosis so we recuperated and commiserated each other on the lounge for a week! The second time she just seemed a little flat no temp, but we could see the redness in her throat again, I think we caught it early. None of mine have gone off food, but you already know it is a personal thing. Is she losing condition or remaining the same weight?

She is BEAUTIFUL. I have a not so secret desire to own one of these beauties one day. I think it is the ears that do me over

This!! I had very clear rules with my boys- you pee on grass, not any other surface regardless of how good it smells. They were put on grass and heavily rewarded, and interrupted if they went elsewhere this included on the paving outside as well as in the house. There have been one or two accidents in three years from having a full bladder and just having to go elsewhere but he has never 'marked' in the house, even when I have been training puppies that have had accidents. I don't think desexing at this point would change much- particularly since you have identified the cat as the trigger. Just go back to basics and treat him like you did when he was 8 weeks old.

Afghan Hound: Sir Walter, Airedale Terrier: Abbey Akita: Kyojin, Kuma American Staffordshire Terrier: Tua, Max, Juno Australian Cattle Dog: Elvis, Matilda, Katie Australian Cattle Dog X : Frosty Australian Shepherd: Banjo, Archie, Lottie Australian terrier: Bailey, Brandy, Jasper Australian Kelpie: Revan, Abby, Bluey, Cahill, Franky, Izzy, Safire, Milky, Kinta, Banjo, Rosie, Skye, Emerald, Gem Australian Kelpie X:Toby, Cooper Basset Hound : Gemma Bearded Collie: Charlie, Bonnie, Bailie Belgian Shepherd (Groenendael): Fleming, Ivy Bichon Frise: Jag Bichon Frise X: Harper Bloodhound: Earl Border Collie: Roy, Molly, Kirra, Rory, Rumor, Diesel, Kobie, Emma, Kenzie, Maggie, Ella, Shelby, Jayde, Ashli, Mia, 'Bubba' Border Collie x: Anna Borzoi: Oberon, Boris, Sonya, Kurgan, Ursula, Apollo, Atlas, Adonis, Argus, Alektos, Arinyes, Athena, Aphrodite, Aidos, Andromeda, Ares, Alexander Boxer: Bruno, Nelsson Brittany: Zora Bull Terrier: Bonnerville, Atlas Bull Terrier (Miniature) Lainie Cane Corso: Ali Cavalier King Charles Spaniel: Bree, Ingrid, Jersey, Lacey, Fern, Floyd, Indy, Arnie, Joey, Renae, Bailey, Murphy, Maggie Chihuahua: Chelsea and Pansy, Heidi, Bertie, Moose, Archi,Pepe, Squirt, Limpet, Jasper, Bella, Dobby Cocker Spaniel : Maggie,Jesie, Bonnie, Chelsea Dalmatian: Appollo, Cleo Dogue De Bordeaux: Moose & Chevy English Cocker Spaniels: Jesie,Bonnie, Chelsea English Setter: Spartan, James English Springer Spaniel: Buddy Finnish Lapphund:Halo, Vienna, Jaana,Magnus,Aurora-Rose,Niina,Paddington,Maximus, Ahsoka, Fable, Demi,Varda, Asha, Boots, Echo, Alera, Annika Flatcoat Retriever: Moraig French Bulldog: Lola, FeeBee, Alexis, Claire, Lilly German Coolie: FlashBazil, Latte German Shepherd: Java, Odin, Tlaloc, Rebus, Indi, UnoBuffy, Bronx, Sabre, Kynan German Shorthaired Pointer: Pip, Coco, Polo German Spitz (Mittel)- Amber Golden Retriever: Onslow, Matilda-Rose, Chester, Genie, Ella, Rosie, Bruce, Chloe, Chaos, Ruby, Sasha Great Dane: Sparkles, Whitney Greyhound: Harry, Kiff, Sally, Clyde, Ryan Griffon Bruxellois: Mocha Hungarian Vizsla: Flynn, Rogan Irish Terrier: Kate, Duke Italian Greyhound: Bella, Tari, Blaze Jack Russell Terrier: Ringo, Nandi, Chief, Louis, Matilda Japanese Spitz: Emmy, Angelo Keeshond: Jedi Labrador Retriever: Lestat, Bailey, Tia, Mieka, James, Harry, Lily Rose, Miniature Fox Terrier: Cleopatra Miniature Long Haired Dachshund: Mini, Rover Miniature Pinscher: Mischa, Cleo Newfoundland dogs: Annabelle, Katy, Lukey Norwegian Elkhound: Odin Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriver: Nova, Darcy, Jovi Papillon: Blaze, Minka, Portia, Tyson, Coco, Tonka Pointer : Kite Audrey Poppin konrad, Badger Poodle (Toy): Chilli Poodle (Minature): Caroline Poodle (Standard) Merry & Pippin, Poppy & babies. Pug: LotusFlynn, Elyse, Ted, Misty, Elly, Poppy, Sally landers,Archie, Beau, Haidee, Millies, Ivee, Jack Rhodesian Ridgeback: Meisha, Bakari, Boss Rottweiler: Roxy, Feonix, Radar, Neo, Abby, Dyzney, Fame, Jag, Nellie Rose, Baylee, Dee, Zephyr, Mini, Diesel, Fire, Flint Saluki: Bella Samoyed: Mistral, Alchemy, Yngvie, Dante, Bundy, Kamikaze, Fergus, Kato Schnauzer (Miniature): Maximus, Coconut,Betty,Jigga, Riva, Amy, Indy, Amber, Grace, Guy, Blue, Connie Schnauzer (Giant): Tara, Darcy Shar Pei: Askari, Acheron, Asante sana, Sirius, Chippy, Christina, Diezel, Shih Tzu : Gizmo Siberian Husky: Akira, Tikaani,Romeo,Baby.Riddick,Indie, Esky Staffordshire Bull Terrier: Kiara, Zola, Diesel, Kaos, Brutus, Monty, Chaos SWF: Zoe Rescue Bitsa: Keely, Fred & Ginger, Ozzie, Tess, Maverick, Bosco, Kyah, Charlie, Astrid, Mala, Bella, Tiny Tim, Jen Jen, Lilly, Judy, Mini, Pixie, Ozzie, Dozer Welsh Corgi (Cardigan): Shandy White German Shepherd: Casper White Swiss Shepherd: Rakim, Whippet: Herbie, Buzz, Lewis, Rommi, Daphne, Elliot, Mindy, Whiz, Arizona aka Zassy Weimaraner: Ariane, Lulu, Louie West Highland White Terrier: Penny, Mac, Daisy, Mac, Sarah, Andy

This!!

Generally the toy ring as a whole. Small White Fluffies have actually differentiated into different breeds for me

I don't pat my dogs when they are eating, but I have had to take bowls of food away from them (when the wrong dog has got the wrong food) etc. They all know if this happens they get rewarded appropriately so no need to defend it. Also with bones- I have on many occasions grabbed a cooked bone out of a doggie mouth when on a walk, even on training grounds!! I don't see it as a big deal and neither do my dogs. Most vets would recommend some form of food desensitisation at this age.

Just thought I would add- it is reasonably common in pups (nothing to ignore but you are certainly not alone!). When I was raising my litter one of the boys tried it around 5 weeks of age twice, I just kept giving him better treats than kibble while he was eating and he soon learned to accept me being round food. The other aspect to consider is how the breeder fed your pup- he might have had competition around his bowl so protected it from his litter mates and now needs to learn he doesn't need to protect it from you. I know others in the thread have given you great advice but stay positive your pup is just working out boundaries, and working through this is great foundation for any future boundary pushing that happens. It sounds like you are already progressing well.