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Heart guard, pro heart and a few others are heart worm only. Just checking- what breed is your dog (as a few breeds need to be aware of the kind of heart worm preventative they are put on).

Another thought would be a basket muzzle. Not a soft one as basket ones are less restrictive and still allows them to drink.

Not sure if the product down the bottom of this page would be any better- http://www.callicoma.com.au/accessories1.htm Another option is to give her other things to think about- I put little bits of sticky tape on my boy when he was continually licking his paw.

I shot of an email about midnight and had an answer when I woke up the next morning. And they added the bit I wanted to my order

WOW- ok I now I am really glad I got new weave poles. Motivated about weaving again- I wanna train my pups that well!!

Then that is perfectly fine. We have different standards. But I see no reason why I should apply your standard as if it THE STANDARD, any more than I expect you to apply and live by my standards. The standard for the Koehler trained dog, is as I have said, the same regardless where they are. You have to understand that when Koehler was developing his method, obedience trials were thought of very differently to the way they are now. There was much more emphasis on 'trialling' your dog to an objective standard which demonstrated the good manners and obedience of your dog. Good manners and obedience that could and would be taken everywhere you and your dog went. Of course, humans being humans, trialling soon became competitive. People started training with the specific goal of winning trials. For Koehler, training behaviors specifically for the ring was nonsensical and opposed to the original intention of obedience trials. Of course, there is nothing to say that you can't change the standards of which dogs 'perform' in the ring. But there is also nothing in your 'standards' - which is the standards of 'performance' - that compels me to change my standards, which are the standards of everyday living. We have have these disagreements, because you and others have confused your standards as being THE STANDARD. lol- once again we are on different pages, and most of my post has been ignored. You are right way back when Koehler was developing his method times were different. So now in todays society new training methods have been created to suit todays trials! You do realise that time is also a context- so applying logic that is outdated and showing performances of dogs currently working and saying that they would have been acceptable in the past does not make them appropriate today. It is faulty logic to turn up at a trial and ignore the judge and perform all the exercises exactly as they were in the past as there have been changes. You must look at Koehler's training in todays society, not look at what the ideals where back then because they were in a different time context. It was you that bought into this discussion competition, which set the standard of aiming for a perfect score. They are not my standards, they are THE standards set by THE ANKC and the judges ;) I just have to conform by them. If you don't want to discuss trailing then show us some amazing Koehler trained dogs going for a walk down the street because then you can set any standard you want. Show us an obedience trial and we will sit and judge the performance according to the rules as we have them today. And by those rules the examples you have shown are not amazing.

Precisely. The dog has been trained to perform to that standard regardless of what context it is in. The different aims of training. Again, why can't you understand this? The dog has not been trained to perform in the ring - it has been trained to perform in any and all contexts to that standard. The dog has been trained to perform to that standard in every context. Aren't you the person who asked me why wouldn't you want to improve your standard? My only standards when I go for a walk is that they stay within easy calling distance and they don't chase other dogs/birds. Since my aim is to exercise and enjoy an outing with the dogs those standards are more than adequate to fulfil my needs. Having 4 dogs trying to maintain heel position is just straight out painful (I have tried it) and confusing so having them wonder close to me suits my context. My standard when I enter the ring is much higher I want a dog that is alert, responsive (so if I say heel I expect the dog to be there as fast as they can physically get there, just like if they were on a walk and I had to recall them off something) and engaging with me. That doesn't mean they have to be staring me in the face, but they shouldn't be looking at what is going on in the ring next to us. When I hit the Rally O ring next moth this connection is actually marked as part of the final score! My aim in competition is to try and get the perfect score. No point going into a trial ring with the same standards as I do going for a walk because they are completely different situations with different aims. For one I only trial one dog at a time, when I go for a walk I go with a few dogs, either on lead or off

My 6.5yr old kelpie is still doing the same flyball times as she was a few years ago! I expect it will be another few yrs before she slows down, but I am trying to get her fitness up so that she can keep up with herself (her only speed is flat out).

OK the last order was just placed, followed by an email asking them if they could add something to it

Ok, take a look at the dog heeling offlead in that video, imagine the exact same behavior in the dog as it takes a casual stroll with it's owner. Are you saying that that performance can be improved? What do you mean by that? That the dog should be in high drive, prancing on all fours, looking at adoringly at its owner as they enjoy a causal stroll? Why would you want a dog like that on a casual walk? That is what the dog has been trained for - to be attentive and responsible in ordinary life. Why can you not understand that the aim of training here is different? But thats not the context that this dog is in. My dog would look similar out on a walk with her walking collar on. Pop her working collar on and my dog does become drivy and animated because we are working not strolling down the path. This dog is in competition and still looks like it is going for a stroll in the park. And for that matter why does a dog need to be in perfect heel while on a walk? When mine walk off lead they stop and sniff but all know that there is a 2meter zone that they have to stay in. They are under voice control and do regular check ins with me so I don't care that they are not on my left hand side etc. When we go for a casual walk on lead they can be anywhere so long as its not directly in front of me (they learn that when I accidentally trip on them) and not pulling.

The dog scored 196.5 Obviously American judges are all incompetant fools as well, no doubt. Too bad there's no points to be scored for the dog's attitude in the ring or for speedy responses to commands etc. I see dogs like that at trials all the time, I honestly find it really sad that anyone would watch that vid and think that's an example of awesome work. That was what made me think of Rally-O. The dog and Handler have no bond so would struggle to do any sport other than formal obedience. They would struggle with agility, flyball, Rally, Heelwork to music. The most amazing Obedience dogs I have seen have been able to turn their paw to almost anything because of their connection with the handler!

OMG that quote made me laugh!! (not the fake LOL kind- the real dogs jump off the bed and peer crazily at the human trying to work out what they are doing kind)

Just a random question. Was Rally O around at the same time as Koehler/his training methods? or did it evolve after?

I don't really have any questions aside from, do you really think that is good work? To be honest if that is the video that is held up as an example of how amazing Koehler training is, it's pretty unimpressive. +1 Also I doubt that dog would heel off a rabbit running away.

It is a method that was developed and tested over 16 years and 11,000 handlers and their dogs. It was proven to work with all dogs regardless of breed or temperament. That's fine, I am not suggesting that you or anyone else do anything other than what works for you. And yet, on day 7 Koehler will test the attentiveness of the dog by finding a big distraction for the dog (such as a rabbit), he will walk the dog up to the rabbit to make sure the dog has seen it, and if the dog remains attentive and follows the handler when he turns, you then move onto the next section of the course (namely, teaching the heel). Will your method bring the same compliance under distraction in seven days? There is a big difference between a technique or even a random collection of techniques and a 'method'. Why do you call your method correction based? Just because a method uses correction doesn't mean it is based on corrections? Surely not? Any method, including Koehler, that hopes to teach a dog to do something is based on reinforcement. Correction alone, cannot teach a dog to do anything. At best it can stop a behaviour, but it cannot teach a new behavior. With my second dog yes my method had more corrections than rewards so I would determine it to be correction based. I gave two different scenarios. My older dog that required correction to achieve my result and my younger, new without the same hang ups puppy that I decided to use reward based methods with corrections where necessary. I recognised that my pup is not my older dog all over again so was happy to start again with positive training to see where it will get us And I think this is what others have been trying to say as well. As for compliance I can walk my pup around dogs doing flyball, agility I can recall her off her litter sister who she has grown up with. She would prefer to stare at me than even look at a rabbit running let alone if it were boring and stationary lol. She has been called a snob by other people who have tried to get her attention because in all honesty I have built up a great reward history with her so she knows I am the winning bet for her- the rabbit has no history of reward so why go for something that you chase and don't catch when there is a 90% (ok I am not that fit 95%) chance that she will catch me?? Probably not in 7 days but at 8mths of age I am quite happy with that reliability, especially since she has been that good since about 6mths. I wouldn't expect to be able to walk a 6mth old pup that much for 7 days, well I wouldn't be comfortable doing it with regards to joints (as I do agility and flyball), so using the Koehler method I wouldn't start it till they were older, probably 8-9mths minimum) so if you factor in the time I would wait to be able to march around with my dog.... Well I have probably achieved my success a few months earlier than I would have with the Koehler method ;) I will also add- times change. What people were doing 16 years ago (or longer) in other industries has been upgraded and new easier/better methods have been found. Why not the same in dog training?? Also the breeds popular for obedience etc have changed in this time so appropriate training methods have been created depending on breed traits. PS you can teach new behaviours solely with corrections. They are not very helpful but you can tech them! aka correcting when a dog does not return will not only teach the dog not to recall but teaches many to actively run away!! Bam new behaviour created solely from correction based training. You can also teach a dog to cower when you go to grab their collar if you give them a good hiding each time.

Here are some links to threads on this topic. Yes it is possible to assist them and you can not reinforce an emotion so spending time with your dog is not going to reinforce them being scared of storms. http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/228793-do-thundershirts-work/page__view__findpost__p__5560674 http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/227842-if-your-dog-flys-under-the-coffee-table-and-lays-there-shaking-in-fear-because-of-thunder/page__view__findpost__p__5531180

Clean Run order FAIL!! What are you going to do now? Make another order with the stuff they refunded? And did they give you a choice on what they were taking out of your order? They might start putting free shipping restrictions on us very eager Aussies soon They could always say one order/address. But I have quite a few relies that might suddenly have me camping with them if they did!!

On reading that explanation I have to wonder if it was written for a certain disposition of dogs. I can see the kelpies 'getting' the idea of the length of the lead. I can also see my Lapphund lying down and refusing to walk and me dragging her round while she has a nice nap. From what I have met of my I think I will stick with my own method. itsadogslife you mentioned dogs chasing cats- well that is pretty much my method. I pretend I am a cat and the dog never knows when I am going to take off. As puppies they get to 'catch me' and get a big reward of food and cuddles. I then make it a bigger/longer harder game and yup the do self reward which is why I have an 8mth old kelpie pup that is always watching (and I have just made sure to position her on my left side) incase I take of like a cat/rabbit and she gets to hunt me down lol. She started heeling because that was the easiest position to keep track of me. I also found this method showed results within a day or two- I personally wouldn't have the patience to walk around ignoring my dog for a week for 20minutes a day when a 5minute session of pretending I am a rabbit is better for my fitness. That is not to say she doesn't have corrections, but I have to say that atm I am finding it hard pressed to find her doing anything wrong in her training for me to correct. Generally any stuff ups are when I am in the wrong. When I keep the training to her level and don't push she has a pretty high hit rate because she wants the food damn it!! My older dog with behavioural problems is not off lead unless he is working, and even then I usually still have him on a long line. He has had corrections in his training and I have to say I always gave him warning of when a correction was coming, I didn't expect him to suddenly understand what I did/did not want him to do. Which is actually the most interesting thing I find about the Koehler method that you described. By giving a verbal warning my dog was able to understand from the second time that the behaviour he was displaying was going to earn him a correction and he could make the choice to display a different behaviour. Just letting you know he wears a prong collar when I take him for walks, although I also use a martingale which now has the same effect as the prong because his warning marker causes him to cease his behaviour. So once again my correction based method actually has very few corrections in it. Why did I write all that? I believe in positive based training and have used it on my pup. BUT when the time comes for it I use corrections because like you positive training alone didn't work for my eldest dog. He is now as happy as larry because he knows and understands the rules of walking with me. And he is now learning the rules of flyball- yup he should be competing this year even with all his hang ups!! I will go with what everyone else has said and tell you to contact k9Pro!!

Demi with Santa!! She was my model where I worked so was lucky enough to spend THREE WHOLE DAYS telling santa EXACTLY what she wanted with her name on it under the tree! She also told him how naughty the Kelpies have been and that all their prezzies should also be directed her way

But I am not looking at them so it is completely irrelevant. Even if the pretty blue one is almost in my teams colours......

You just need a dog like Franky "people what people? I don't see any people. I see mum but the rest of the field is empty" when we are at a show or obedience lol and has been from day dot. Either that or get a bomb proof fluffy like Demi that you can sit in front of your puppy while your training. That generally distracts them and since Demi is a Delta dog they can go for their life- its all training for her job lol. I have to say I have actually had people be rude about franky completely ignoring them! Good luck with the general public- Abby is rude because she bounces on them and Franky is rude because she ignores them.

So mine would probably be a S/M too since Abby was similar in size to your girls. Not looking at them though or anything like that...... Spent too much already but they do look so nice for flyball....... Seriously I am not looking at them

Troy is is possible to add The Rally-O titles as well which will start up in 2012 ? Flyball isn't in their either Is Flyball and ANKC sanctioned title? Abby has her Flyball Master (FM) ANKC cert