Vickie

PGM, I may be taking you too literally again and I certainly agree with placing value in experience. My point is why limit the concept of theory to qualifications in behavioural science, it to me is as pointless as attributing a positive or traditional status to a trainer. As humans, we all theorise, it's what seperates up from the animals, LOL. It's inevitable, if fact, what you are giving us here in this thread is a heap of theories. Any good dog trainer with have their own theories, gained from a variety of theories from others as well as their own experiences. In many ways I think dogs are easier to read the minds of than people. They are like children who haven't yet learnt to lie & hide things. The best part is, they never get to this point. I think this has been a valuable thread. There are so many aspects to dog training. With such a wide audience it is very hard to make generalised statements about the effectiveness of any given method for any given dog to perform any given behaviour with any given reliability. For example, I'm not knocking Boxagirl for this post: "I believe that positive methods CAN work on ALL dogs, if used correctley. A GREAT book on positive dog treaining is "The Complete Idiot's Guide To Positive Dog Training" by Pam Dennison. It is probably the best and most informative book I have ever read. It is simple and explains the theory and science behind all the behaviors. It covers basically every aspect of dog training, and actually explains why positive dog training is better. It completely changes the way you think when training a dog (and actually makes you stop and think before just yelling or yanking the leash!!) I strongly suggest that anyone who is interested in dog training reads this book." and I haven't seen the book, but "It is simple and explains the theory and science behind all the behaviors." would question the above statement. I know plenty of people who are very good trainers in their field with certain types of dogs. What happens when you train a dog who is completely hard wired by instinct to do a task, or alternately one who is completely unsuitable for that task. I think to really have this conversation it needs to get more specific...are we talking about teaching a dog to sit here? or a much more complex chain of behaviours? Personally I have a lot more respect for the people who actually know what the ultimate reward IS for their dog (something I'm finding not many know) than someone who claims to use rewards exclusively...something I believe is pretty much impossible.

PGM, I wonder how this statement works. There are some activities that are self rewarding for a dog. I don't believe the dog is "yet to understand" in these instances. I'm not exactly sure what my opinion is on this as I can agree & disagree with many of the points raised here. One thing I am sure of is that the dog itself and it's individual temperament/instinct/drive for the activity being trained can & will play an important part in the most efficient method of training it as will the consistency and skill of the trainer. To me it's much bigger than positive vs negative.

So Byott, did you ring? Did you go in to the vet? Let us know what is happening when you can.

Byott, I would ring your vet. I wouldn't be mucking about with a 9 week old puppy. Is there a chance that he ate something? Does he seem OK otherwise?

That'd make 3 ditto's

Hi TollerBlaize I don't really understand the no trick, obedience things either. Did they give an explanation for this? Where is the line drawn between the two? I'd also be careful about not socialising him. I guess 2 weeks is not so bad, but he's at an age where he needs to learn from other dogs what is & what is not acceptable behaviour. It kind of sounds like these franchises have check lists & based on those checks they label a dog into one of 2 or 3 categories. I wonder what they'd do if you took a normal secure puppy (which by the way, I believe Blaize is) and asked for an assessment without stating any problems. I wonder if they take into consideration the way a dog has been bred. From the few times I have met him, I see a dog who is bold, secure and has a heap of drive. That's what most of us want in a puppy. You didn't buy, nor do I think you want a couch potato. He has nice body language with other dogs & is a very well bred puppy. I understand why you wanted help, but just like kids, they don't come out of the box, knowing how to behave. And I think the methods we use are pretty important for our long future with them and most importantly they enable us to form that very special bond that we will have with them forever. I'm sure everyone will be here for you if & when you need some more advice after the 2 weeks. There is a lot of knowledge on this forum. Vickie

Darien They are all beautiful. I hardly ever come in here as I can't deal with it well. Of course I have tears running down my face as Jenna looks exactly like our boy we lost nearly 10 years ago now. And he used to sleep just like that. How hard it must be for you to be without all 3 of them. I hope you have someone new to share your life with. Vickie

I have been (taken my dog) to this lady for treatment. She is excellent & now operates out of a few locations around Sydney. http://k9physio.com/ Vickie

What about toys? I use toys & tug almost exclusively for training.

I would go & get a few lessons with an experienced trainer. You don't say where you are but I'm sure wherever it is, people here will have someone they can recommend. Your boys is a teenager & will change significantly now. How you handle the next few months will probably affect how he is for the rest of his life. Being entire is not helping him much at this point. You probably wont get a lot of sympathy here for not desexing him unless he is a registered stud dog which is really the only valid reason for keeping him entire. I would also be careful with the assumption that the larger dog will always be the dominant one. This is not always the case and this assumption could be dangerous. How much training have you already done with him & what sort of training is it? What is him comfort zone when he sees another dog? How far away does he have to be without reacting & what is his reaction when he sees another? Have introductions been done on or off lead?

Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson is another good one, although Other End of the Leash is my alltime favourite

here's a couple of articles I had saved in my favourites re ivermectin sensitivity: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/0402374101v1.pdf re regularity of vaccinations: http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/vac.html

mbfcodes, I don't know much about formal obed, but that is one awesome looking dog. Any more pics? I'd love to see a full body shot if you have one.

While I agree with the spirit in which I am sure this is written, I cannot agree with it entirely. Yes, mostly when it goes wrong it is the handlers fault, but it kinda depends on the dog. I think it's possible for some dogs to "blow you off". I know this is a training/relationship issue but a strong willed complicated dog will take so much more effort than a biddable one to perfect the same behaviour. When things go right, I always give myself a huge pat on the back. And while I will of course praise my dog & give it credit, I have often worked really hard to achieve that moment. I am learning with herding that when you have a truly hard wired dog, the majority of the learning needs to be done by the handler, so you bet, if I find myself in that magical moment where everything is perfect, I'm going to take my share of the credit. Likewise in agility, I know my dogs are running as fast as they can and trying as hard as they can to read my signals, so when a perfect run or sequence is achieved, I know that I have trained the dog to this level & somehow managed to get my body & timing just right. After all, if we don't take some credit, where is our motivation to continue?

Another good one, Don't practise a mistake. If it goes wrong more than twice, you need to put your dog away and work out what the problem is.

Always set your dog up to succeed. A behaviour is not known by a dog until it is taken on the road & proofed under distractions Everything is much easier if you understand what your dogs highest value reward is (although I do believe it is possible to change it) One command/signal can/should only mean one thing...dogs are not mind readers As a handler, if you can't do it well without the dog, you can never do it well with the dog

Yes it is a generalisation but I think more a reflection of our training techniques than a comment on the dogs. Hyper dogs take more consistent work to make accurate. There are plenty of people around the world with hyper fast dogs who are very very accurate. They are just a few years ahead of us in technique. Due to a lot of seminars and accessability to training techniques, I think we are changing and starting to see the faster dogs dominate the podium, which of course is as it should be. The other point that I think is valid is how much influence a handler and their methods have on a dog. There are huge variations of speed & motivation within each breed & this can mostly be attributed to handlers as well as the breeding. My 3 are all hyper & I wouldn't have it any other way. One of them I think could actually be a laid back & cautious dog if trained a different way. The other 2 are just naturally mad :rolleyes:

The other crucial thing is to cut out all snacks, tidbits. Sometimes people feed their dogs about the right amount but double those calories in leftovers each day. As with humans, a gradual weight loss is the best way to go. I started feeding my BC's according to premium dog food package recommendations years ago. From memory, this was about 3 1/2 cups per day. They were each around 8-10 kilos overweight. They are now around 18-20 kilos, so that was one third of their body weight over at the time. When I started agility training, many people told me that they were overweight, so we started to cut it down, 2 1/2 cups, then 2 cups, then 1 1/2, now one cup. I took a year to decrease their food intake. As Fiona suggested, I also changed one of those cups to "lite" along the way. I would talk to your vet again, as this might be too long a period for your dog, if she's that overweight. Mine also get treats in training, leftovers sometimes & bones sometimes. When I add any of these extras, their dry food is reduced. I knew a lab, in a similar situation. Friends of mine looked after her for a year, while their parents were overseas. Over a year, she went from hardly being able to walk at the park to running alongside a bike...loose skin flying everywhere LOL but SO SO happy. I never saw her again once the parents came back, but have heard that they kept it up & she has a new lease on life. Good luck & I would definitely get your vet to help you do a plan to help her. Vickie

and this one

Kim, you reminded me that I took a couple of pics last week...