Vickie

Here's a very small clip...you may have to play it a couple of times to stop it freezing as I didn't shrink it 1st. It's not the best, but it's a good example & shows situations where it wouldn't be easy for a young dog to stop & a situation where they would be comfortable to do so. http://www.youtube.com/?v=NycpO4G4sN8

FWIW, here are some of my limited thoughts/experiences... Since I started I've found there are at least 2 very different trains of thought on a stop. Some seem to get a stop & a call off before they allow the dog to move much at all on sheep. They do it using leads so that the dog must stop when asked. It's very reliable but can be very mechanical too. Others don't really stress about it too much and let it happen when the dog is comfortable on the sheep. With Trim I did it the 2nd way. In the beginning we didn't really ask for a stop, just caught her when we wanted to stop. As she became more comfortable & more in control of the sheep, we started to set up situations where she could bring the sheep to me in a corner to ask for a stop on balance, when everything was calm. She seemed to learn the word without too much effort and now we're getting pretty reliable off balance stops. There are still situations where she sees something that I don't & she doesn't stop when I ask, but they are becoming rarer. I think part of this is because she is trusting me more to be in control & part of it is become I am becoming better at recognising a situation which she would find it difficult to stop in. IMO, there is nothing more frustrating that watching someone yelling stop at their dog endlessly while the dog is desperately trying to get control of the sheep. ETA: I'm sure I've done some of this too ;) before I knew better At the stage we're at, I'm still trying only to ask for it when I know I'll get it.

Thought I'd start up a thread about this, for Cloverfdch. How do you teach a stop? When do you teach it? When do you expect it to be reliable? I have a question as well...after a stop, do you allow your dog to start moving again, or does it have to wait for a command? I have a little clip of Trim working. It's not great, but might be useful for discussion on stops. I'll try to load it later tonight. I think there's enough of us here interested to have a good discussion.

I was wondering the same thing. I always thought one of mine had a bad sense of smell. I play a game where I take them outside, then go & hide under a blanket somewhere in the house. Zeus will be frantic to find me, but can't seem to use his nose to do it, Noah otoh finds me straight away. Noah can also smell his favourite dogs from quite a distance. I see his nose go up & his tail start to wag & sure enough, they're around the next corner. Then about 6 mths ago, a friend of mine who visits often, took up "a habit". Zeus, the dog with no nose, is obsessed with her handbag if there's funny green stuff in it. He smells it as soon as she walks in the door. So all my 3 have a great sense of smell. Trim can smell a tennis ball from anywhere, Noah can smell his dog mates and Zeus...well he's a sniffer dog in training. They are all moderate on food.

Well as I said, I guess it's just a different method of training. I have never taken mine to obedience classes and probably will never do so. I trained my last dog by just taking her for short walks where there were no real distractions off lead & just let her follow me, like they used to do in the olden days . And yes, I believe this is how she learnt the word. I used a motivator toy from day one and it became a very high value reward, very quickly. I think the age for proofing depends on the dog and it's drives/motivations and certainly some proofing would probably start before 6 mths, depending on the dog. The most interesting thing I have done in the last 6 mths was train a recall off sheep. I was a little nervous about this as I really couldn't imagine that it would be an easy task, given that there is nothing in the world my dog would rather do. I am still surprised at just how easy it was but conscious of how many factors already existed for it to work. "Come" on sheep really means, you'll probably get to go back on, but sometimes we need a break. Either way, it is a command, not a request and is always complied with very enthusiastically. Sometimes I think we make stuff too complicated too early.

LOL, sorry, I was trying to separate quotes...I'm a bit slow...but proud that I finally worked out how to do that

Just a different method of training I guess, At 9 weeks, most pups will follow you. I use this to associate the command with a behaviour that I can predict. I would say the proofing comes in a little later, for mine usually around 6 mths, when they suddenly realise that they don't have to and that there are other things they would like to get involved in. In the period between 9 weeks & 6 months, they naturally get more adventurous over that time, so again, I have found the distance comes naturally.

I'm confused by this. Why do you need a stay to teach a recall? and why do you need more than one person to teach either? I have never used a stay or another person to teach a recall. Vickie

I agree. Recall is very important and should definately be started asap. I would also question whether she has really "mastered" sit, in a week. It's good to start training something but to master it, often takes while a while. For example mastering sit would include, voice command only, sitting while you have your back to her, sitting while you are walking, sitting while another dog is playing ball around her etc, I'm sure you get the drift. I think 9 weeks is really too young to teach stay. I would work at getting a relationship with her 1st. If you do a search on puppy games/tricks, you should find a heap of old threads on here. Vickie

Great pics, Bodie is very very cute.

Mrose S, Please don't jump your dog 1.6/1.9 metres . That is not what agility is about. Agility is about being able to direct your dog from one obstacle to the next and this can be trained using no height at all. My 3 dogs measure between 47-50cm and the most they are ever expected to jump is 57cm and even this will be lowered next year. Vickie

For those not interested, sorry, but I think there are a few who are interested. I found this on a BC discussion where they were discussing prey drive in working dogs: "I wanted to make my views on prey drive as it relates to stock work more clear. I confess what follows is something, in its entirety, that I have written on this subject previously so please excuse any repetition on my part from earlier posts: Although portions of herding instinct originated from hunting instinct, researchers such as Michael Fox have demonstrated that domesticated breeds such as herding dogs have been selected for truncated prey drive that stops before the kill bite (Fox M.W., 1978. The Dog. Its domestication and behavior. New York and London: Garland STPM Press). However, all dogs are predators under the right circumstances, so they can still learn to hunt and kill stock. Border collies may do so easier than other breeds because they are naturally attracted to stock. This does not mean herding ability is merely handler controlled hunting instinct. It has components of prey drive, but it by no means only prey drive, and it is by no means a simple collection of traits. Increased intensity of parts of the truncated sequence of predation have been selected for. For example, the desire to stop and control stock known as "heading behavior" is modified and expanded from what would be a weak, situational skill in most predators. The same is true of driving skills. As well, it has been said that sheepdogs have an extreme interest in stock when compared predators such as wolves. If the prey are too difficult to catch, wolves will usually give up easily and wait for easier prey whereas border collies will work long and tirelessly, no matter how difficult the job. In nature, keenness to pursue prey that is too difficult when easier prey could be had would be selected against. There are other differences in herding behavior and predatory behavior that are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Border collies must work to control and move stock. This involves identifying and influencing the strong leaders, not the weak stragglers. In contrast, predators try to find the weakest and most vulnerable of the prey to pursue and capture. This behavior of only being interested in controlling the strong leaders is so pronounced in some border collies that they will ignore lambs and sick sheep completely, as if they weren't even there. Even wild or unbroke stock can identify and respond calmly but obediently to a determined dog with the right work ethic. This response is nothing like the one of terror the stock would have toward a predator. Dogs that upset stock too much are not desirable, since this type of stress causes weight loss and compromises the health of the stock, thus lowering their value. Working stock properly involves a highly refined relationship and communication between the stock and the dog. What we see is only the tip of the iceberg. Although eons of prey/predator interactions have honed the senses involved in this relationship, the relationship between the good sheepdog and its sheep is quite different from one of a predator/prey relationship. This type of highly evolved working ability cannot be trained in those who do not have it. As I have said, many a well bred working border collie pup can go out and gather unbroke stock even in large areas and bring them to the owner quite naturally at a young age. Training should merely be a refinement of what is already there from good breeding."

Thanks, I think I understand now. I guess it's just the connotation that "prey" has with an intention to kill or maim that keeps throwing me. K9: sheep dogs dont go out & heard sheep with no training, with no training, they would likely chase & bite the sheep, through training, the dogs prey drive satisfaction has been developed into a different satisfaction. The dogs are not in drive the whole time either, that would be impossible, when the dog needs to stop chasing sheep as it has guided them, its going in & out of drive to avoid making an error... This makes sense, although I think you'd be surprised at how many dogs bred for it do/would in fact herd sheep with no training and never try to chase or bite. I guess sheepdogs have different levels of prey drive like any other dog. I also know a few, who on first exposure, literally wanted to eat the sheep & turned out to be very nice working dogs.

That makes some sense but I still don't understand. If sheepdogs are in prey drive how do they achieve drive satisfaction? They never get to chase or bite the sheep. This is not their ambition, their goal is to gather & bring the sheep to the handler. A dog in prey drive creeping towards a bird has the expectation/hope that they will get the bird...this is not so with sheepdogs. Also the sheep are well aware of what the dogs intentions are and sheep being worked by a dog who just wants to take them down will often just fall over and wait to die.

K9: ? A herding dog is usually loaded with prey drive... One of the most important qualities in a sheepdog is it's ability to settle it's stock. I dont understand how a dog in prey drive can successfully do this. Maybe I don't understand prey drive. If you were to train/work your GSD on sheep, what drive would they be working in?

So what happens when your dogs genetic drives do not fall into any of these categories, such as in a herding dog? I'm sure you can teach food/play/prey but genetically there is a much stronger drive. Is there a name for it? Do you believe you can harness this drive to train everyday things?

Of course I do, many years ago, when I was struggling with Noah, someone pointed you out and said "she knows how to run a feral dog...ask her" I haven't been around the trial scene for a while...but who could forget Trev??? I don't think I ever saw Sheila run & have yet to meet Mick. Hopefully we'll be ready to start trialling again in a few months, if I can get my act together. Vickie

Carol, I used to go to Paws 4 Fun a few years ago. They are a nice bunch of people. They're at Eric Mobbs Reserve, Castle Hill on a Sunday afternoon. Here is the website, not sure if it's been updated, so I dont know whether the times are right. http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/rloftus/ Vickie

I'm just curious, there seem to be a lot of people on here training agility. Where do you do it & which day/night? I train mostly at home now, but also go to Castle Hill Agility Dog Club on Thursday nights when I can get there and also attend seminars & take some private lessons when I can. Vickie

There's every chance it's related to his age, but that doesn't mean he will improve without help. In fact I can probably guarantee he won't. There are heaps of old topics on here on getting a reliable recall, so I would suggest going back & reading some of them. I suggested the long line as a management tool while you are training his recall. That means you can still take him to the beach but know that he will not get an opportunity to ignore you calling him. I think one of the biggest mistakes people make with a recall is to keep calling the dog when they know it won't come. All this does is reinforce to the dog that he doesn't have to and makes the word "come" optional in the dogs eyes. The same with a stay, people move too far away too quick and again, the dog learns that the word means nothing. I think all dogs are different, depending on breed, temperament, background etc. Yours could be fine with food and you just haven't found the right thing yet? I don't know your dog. I would be concerned about him coming close & then running away. Does he get stressed easily? Is he a breed that is known for sniffing? This can be a stress thing, unless of course he's a breed that always has their nose on the ground. What breed is he?

Chances are that no food will work if Lazlo finds the environment more rewarding than the food. What is his recall like normally? Around other dogs? At training? I would work on his recall in other areas until you feel he is reliable enough to try him on the beach. I would use a long line for now until you have a good recall on the beach.

He may surprise you Sonny. There was an Aussie Bulldog over here a few years ago. She was an awesome agility dog, very focussed and had a really great relationship with her owner. She was pretty fast and absolutely loooved agility. Let us know what the instructors at the club say...and have FUN! Vickie

Sonny, how old & what breed is your dog? There is no reason you cannot start foundation agility right now. As others have said you do not want to do any jumping or weaving with a pup as the chances are that his growth plates have not yet closed, depending on his age. Growth plates close at different ages for different breeds. The good news is that foundation agility is/should not really about the equipment, it should be about building skills to get your dog from one obstacle to another and building a relationship of teamwork with them and ensuring that they have fun. I firmly believe that formal obed is not necessary to begin agility. Where are you? I'm sure some of us could recommend some good foundation agility classes depending on your location. Vickie

Thanks for that info about the bag. Sounds like none of the dogs were worried about it then. As for herding in Sydney: Hawkesbury Sheepdog Club, Hawkesbury showground is every Saturday 9-12. Erskine Park at the Canine Complex is every Sunday 9-4. I have found that there is a lot more instruction at Hawkesbury, although it can get very busy & there is usually only 1-2 instructors there to help everyone who needs it. I have only been to Erskine Park a couple of times. It has recently changed management, does not seem nearly as busy and there is not structured lessons that I have seen although there are people there to help. I went for 4 hours last Sunday & now that we can work in the arena by ourselves, got a heap of goes and could pretty much do my own thing. It was a heap of fun to go & just hang out for the day. I think Robert & Jenny Cox also do monthly clinics for the weekend in Camden.

Perrys Mum, do you mind if I ask about the plastic bag on the pole? Was this used for all dogs? What was it's purpose & how was it used? I have seen it used before, but only for dogs who wanted to eat the sheep. I also saw it on a video of a clinic, but many of the dogs got really worried & tried to leave the pen. I'm just curious about how it worked. Also there are 2 people I know of who give lessons around the Yass area, if you're interested I can PM you their details thanks Vickie