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OK it works now :p Don't ask! By here are Xias pics:

Well...you could start just a tiny bit I won't mind...honest Honestly today was what herding is all about for me, meeting new people, hanging out with mates, laughing, crying and sharing high & low points together. I had a great day and you're right Sidoney, there was never a chance that she wouldn't work, but it doesn't make it any less special when she did. She's going to be great & I think you have an idea of the fun you're both going to have. I'm really honoured that I was there to see it. SO! I got 2 new people hooked on herding today! Can't wait to see little Rosie have a go too. Again...what a lovely day, thanks guys for sharing it with me. It was lovely to meet you Riley & I think you're going to fit right in out there (if only you'd shut up for a minute ) Oh yeah, I do have pics & a few of them are good ones. I just can't get them on my bloody computer to post. Yesterday the flash stick worked today is doesn't ;) . If I didn't have a new camera, I'd want a new computer.

Well I went to the clinic today. It was really great! Right now I'm buggered & there is so much going round in my head that I wouldn't know where to start. I got some clarifications, some corrections, some confirmations and a whole heap of new ideas & things to work on. Trim was great...it is so so cool to watch an expert work your dog. Unfortunately I was far to busy to even think of setting up the video camera but got a few still pics with my new camera, will post when I can get the driver installed on my stupid computer. I'm tired...but happy. Trim is exhausted...but ecstatic.

YAY!!! It works! Loaded for me immediately. He is awesome and a pleasure to watch working. You can see why a dog that works like that could be worth so much money to a farmer. I assume he's being bred? How much of his training did you do? One day I'm going to go to those sale, purely to watch the dogs work all day! Love the music Thank you so much for persevering with it & loading it up. Hopefully after Sunday, I'll have some decent footage of Trim to load.

Glad to see another person here with some experience Alison. Have you got any pics of yours working? There are a heap of us here just starting out, so any ideas/experiences you have to share we'll all look forward to hearing. ETA: Hmmm...was just looking at your avatar...Riverina, half way between Sydney & Melb so when's the weekend clinic???

Well??? It's tomorrow...

How big is the file? If it's under 10mb, you can email it to me & I'll compress it as much as I can & put it on youtube. I'd love to see it.

I'm not sure, I think part of it is drilling exercises that are not really in relation to the sheep. And I guess if you tell a dog often enough that something that actually feels right to them is wrong, then in any discipline, it would start to be tentative about making decisions. Another point he is making in the email is that often, drilling a certain thing can lead to other behaviours that are not desirable. I'm pretty excited, I am going to a clinic on Sunday with my club, to be conducted by the captain of the NZ team recently back from the World Sheepdog trials in Ireland. I have no idea what we'll be working on, or how it'll be conducted, but I think it's sure to be a valuable experience.

I thought I'd start a new thread for this, since there has been some great discussion on the Stop topic. I got this email from a friend & thought I would include some of his comments (with his permission) as I think they are interesting & thought provoking: There are many theories on training sheep dogs and some people prefer to have absolute control on the dog too the point of taking out all initiative and it is a credit to the breed that they will work like this. Interestingly if you have a look at the trial results or even entries over the last 5 years you will find very few dogs which continue to compete year after year they often come unstuck or start to get burnt out. The dogs which do compete competetively year after year are usually the dogs which are used in real work. I mentioned this to a number of experienced handlers and they agreed with me that constant control burns the dogs out and that when dogs are actually doing real farm work that very little direction is given to the dogs. By judicial use of command and working quietly and freely the dog learns to relax in its work and often responds more quickly to commands when given less frequently. My personal opinion is that if you dont allow the dog to take initiative and to work things out for itself it will never work reliably away from you. The less natural ability a dog has the more command/ assistance it will need but even with X as long as everything is moving along quietly I dont say anything. There are different schools of thought but my thinking is that often people who over command their dogs lack the confidence to allow their dog to show initiative as they may fear loss of control. Traditional shepherding has a very different rationale in training a dog than does obedience training. The aim and challenge in training a sheep dog is to find the right balance between control and independance. this is a real challenge and the problem is that what looks like a good drill for instance the moving full circle on command may infact teach another thing less desirable. My personal thought on this is that you shouldnt break down speecefic drills and work on them independantly of the whole process of sheep work. By this I mean that every movement / command will have an impact upon the sheep which inb turn will affect the drill. The only time I would encourage the dog to come right round 360 is if it is continually getting stuck and wont move off or when dry training around a stationary ball etc. Becuase the ball doesnt move you can teach sides quite easily with out it impacting upon the dogs work. When I plan what I want to achieve in a training session I always take into account the big picture and try to think how what I want to achieve will ffect the over all work of the dog. If you want to see how good some ones dog is ask them to send it after some sheep where it will have to navigate a gate or some other obstacle in order to bring the sheep back and ask them to do it without commanding the dog. Then you will see how good that dog really is. Many will just bring it straight to the fence and get stuck or carry on. That is becuase in many cases the dog hasnt been allowed to develop problem solving abilities. When ever possible I try and let the dog think things out before giving assistance. Any way enough rambling-

That would be great fun. You gotta bring Elvis though! I see you changed your avatar...you REALLY are hooked :rolleyes:

That's interesting Sparty, I've never heard anyone say that before, about coming up & scaring the sheep from a drop. Anyone heard/know anything about this? The only situations I can think of where it would be undesirable for a dog to stop would be b/c either the dog is unsure or not confident to keep going or in the case of a dog with too much eye, for them to hold the sheep in a corner & get fixed on them, rather than holding them to the handler. I have seen this happen & it's very hard for this type of dog to disconnect & once they learn to do it, it feels so good for them that they just want to keep repeating it.

I wouldn't worry about that too much Rhi...especially for his first time...in the paddock they are less sure of being able to cover/control the sheep, so they tend to move a bit faster, which of course makes the sheep move faster, and the person a bit more panicky etc. It has taken me quite some time as a handler to learn to help the dog in a paddock, but I think we are getting there. When things look like getting out of control for me, I just get myself into a position where it's easy for her to fetch the sheep to me. It's kind of like a breather for both of us & a situation we're both very comfortable in. Elvis sounds like he's going to be awesome! It'll be fun to hear his progress.

Nice to see you here & have your input Barb... I think this can be the key to an enthusiastic call off. It has worked very well for us. That'll Do to Trim right now means, come off the sheep happily, move away a bit, flip around in a down & get ready to go again. It's pretty cute to watch & she really doesn't seem to mind too much when we really do stop.

Yb, I certainly don't want to get into a breeding for work argument with anyone...again, but the difference is purely due to the fact that my dog has been bred, for hundreds of years, purely for one thing. I'm sure I could teach my older boy to herd, but the reality is that he would probably be very similar to the ones you saw...he just hasn't been bred selectively for it, despite being the same breed of dog.

So then that's a pretty big difference. I was just looking at another small clip of Trim, about her 2nd or 3rd time on sheep. I can't really post it b/c I'm not the one working her, so would need permission to post it. It's a shame though b/c it gives a perfect example of her bringing sheep into a corner & stopping naturally, without a command, just b/c it was right/instinctive to do so. I have also heard of a lot of people who never introduce a sit/down/stop on their dogs until they have been on sheep a few times. You can see the difference between these dogs & dogs who have been taken in on lead & made to stop, b/c their eyes never leave the sheep. I have a nice book here, with that same concept...2 pics of 2 different dogs stopping. One says it's incorrect b/c the dog stops & turns to the handler & the other is correct b/c the dogs stops but never loses it's connection to the sheep.

But can you see how it is different? I don't know anything about retrieving trials, but is it ever instictive for your dogs to stop at that point?

I'm not sure you can compare them LL. Think about it like this...in a young dog, the instinct should be to fetch the sheep to the handler & gain control of them. If the dog has fetched the sheep & the sheep are settled & don't look like they want to break..the job is done. The dog should naturally stop, b/c there is nothing else to do. It is instinct and all dogs have different degrees of it, but as I said before, my dog will often stop without being asked, simply b/c things are in her control & she doesn't NEED to do anything. Pups like to keep things moving, but as they mature, they shouldn't want to just keep moving the sheep around for no reason, they should want to do their job. Does that make sense?

I would say most people would not do this Lablover & certainly not extensively. The majority of people I know frown on any kind of "dry" (without the sheep) training as they believe the dog should move & stop, always in relation to the sheep. I know some train a cast without sheep, but there are also many people against this as they believe it reduces the dogs ability to feel the sheep. ETA: Sorry ML, posted at the same time...what she said...

Thanks Kelpie-i, I'm happy letting her make decisions & will continue to do so. I know what you mean about robotic dogs and I am trying to avoid that at all costs. Some of them are so mechanical that they are not really in touch with the sheep. As you say, it is like obedience and while I am often impressed by it, it's not what I want for Trim. I find it interesting too b/c everyone seems to want more power from their dogs, yet training in a robotic manner just seems to take the power out. I'm not sure how I feel about the leash thing. I guess it depends on the dog. I see plenty of people do it, but they usually have good reason to, mostly to protect the sheep. I think it takes a pretty talented trainer to take a really full on dog in for the first time. There is a lady at out club who is really amazing, she doesn't use a leash, but moves so calmly & freely and almost gracefully with a new dog. I put a leash on Trim last week, as I found a weak spot that she had & I wanted to help her through it. It worked well & gave her confidence in a situation she was worried in.

Kelpie-i, your method sounds very similar to the one I was taught. I'm glad you mentioned the whistle. It's helped me work something out. Now that I've finally learnt to make some reliable sounds on it, I want to start using it with Trim. I haven't used the hand signal for a few months now on a stop. Reintroducing it may make it easier to teach the stop whistle and then I can fade it again. THANKS!!! What do you think about letting the dog move when it's ready/right after a stop? I have 2 people trying to help me right now. One doesn't want the dog to move, unless asked...and the other, is encouraging letting the dog make the/some decisions. I'm more comfortable with the 2nd at this stage of her training. Her gate work is getting pretty good & when we 1st enter a paddock, she drops right inside the gate & waits for a command, but often I think she is right once working to get up when she does, and she is starting to stop at appropriate times without having to be asked. She is also fairly reliable to leave in a stop, on sheep for a few minutes which we have been building over time. LOL, at the encourager ribbon. I'll just be happy if I actually get the guts to enter it, ;) who cares about the ribbons .