Vickie

Melisski, Diesel sounds exactly like my Zeus as a young dog. And I hate to tell you this, I'm sure you already know, but desexing did little to improve it, although it certainly didn't do any harm. I know people won't agree with me on this, but BC's can be different to other dogs. They have different rules for playing, especially as they mature. They have the ability to read the most subtle of signs from other dogs and unfortunately there are a number of characteristics in some breeds that they just find plain offensive. BC's expect manners from other dogs (even if they don't always have them themselves). I was always very cautious in correcting Zeus for the behaviours you describe in Diesel. For him, me getting tense & correcting him confirmed to him that he was justified to worry. I removed him from situations where he was forced to be in close proximity with other dogs eye balling him. Got him OBSESSED with a tennis ball, worked really hard on his recall & as you are doing, encouraged him to be with dogs he was comfortable with. He is 8 now & still has an occasional problem with a dog, but usually recalls off very well. Funny thing is, I'm sure if I took him back to the obedience classes we started in, with dogs at the end of leads, he would revert to his old habits in a short time. At agility, he is a completely different dog, he is almost always off lead & rarely even glances at another dog. I'm sorry that you have to put up with idiots, who ignore your requests in off lead areas...they're everywhere! Not sure if this has helped or not. I am not saying the behaviour is acceptable, but I think understanding some reasons behind it can sure help to fix it.

No worries, I wasn't trying to be rude, I just think it's a hard thing to explain, especially to people just starting out. I thought I really understood balance, a seemingly simple term, until a few weeks ago when someone showed me a really unlikely balance position. Now I have revised my definition.

My only non expert advice is this: you can read the terms all you like and learn what they mean...but you never really understand them until you work a dog or see a really good demonstation of them. Just my experiences. I thought I knew many things, but I am only just now starting to really understand them.

Sounds like you're a bit mixed up there Kateshep, no offence, but I think you're right, better to leave to the experts. It's so hard to get your head around stuff as it is without confusing things.

Uh Oh! I thought patience would come with age, maturity & experience. It does doesn't it? please? someone? anyone? Here's a good link with explanation of some terms: http://www.duke.edu/~awho/herding/glossary.htm

Sounds like you have a few options Denise. Will Janet be doing clinics this time?

oooo, which kennel are you looking at for the blue merle? I don't think there are that many. Maybe they're related to Trim.

Nice picture Denise. We had 2 lovely red & tans when I was growing up. The worked the cattle & were tough dogs, but were the sweetest dogs ever with us kids. I have to wonder whether the BC observations are purely a result of trial breeding here in Aust. I have never heard this from other parts of the world. Look forward to hearing how your 2 "up & comings" go and teh differences/similarities you see as they get ready for trialling.

It's amazing the differences & similarities in the 2 breeds. Every time I think I have it worked out, I see something in a dog that proves me wrong. I was just talking to someone on the weekend. They have all kelpies & 1 BC & said they'll stick to the kelpies from now on. That the kelpies are much easier to trust & when you need to rely on the to make the right decisions, they can without losing it or needing to be managed. I tend to see a bigger variation in the way the different lines of kelpies work up here, compared to the BCs, many of which seem to be bred quite similarly. I can't imagine ever switching breeds, but I have developed a real love of the kelpies, they are amazing & versatile dogs.

LOL, It's only me with the funny coloured dogs, Traceys are mostly B&W. I started Trim with her breeder & now train with Hawkesbury sheepdog club. We haven't spent a lot of time in the round yard. Just 2-3 times I think. We started in a larger square yard. So how many dogs do you have Wally2020, what stages are they at? I'm assuming they're kelpies from your avatar. Any pics?

Yes they're half sisters. Have you got any pics of her? I'd love to see some. They're certainly keen, LOL. Trim does this little thing where she thinks that if she crawls along ever so slowly I won't notice . She's getting pretty good though & I can actually down her & she'll stay while another dog works in the same yard/paddock. I know it's hard for her, but she's doing really well. People keep telling me to trust her more..what's the worst that can happen? So she has been spending a lot more time offlead at training while she's not working, every now & then it all gets to much but she has improved dramatically since I started to trust her. I really think it has helped her steady in her work as well. She is a little older than Abigail, so maybe it's an age thing as well. The exercises today were really good for her to steady & settle and I'd like to do them again a little each time I go for a while.

I have 3 BCs, one M show bred, one M half show half working & one F all working bred. I have done agility with my boys & will also do it with my pup. I am hoping to enter her in her first 3 sheep encourager trial in a few months. Thought I might add a couple of kelpie pics I took today at training. and one of my BC, Trim We worked on some very interesting stuff today, a bit different from what we normally do. We did a bit in the yard, then some casting practice out in the paddock & then something new: A bit hard to explain, without a picture/diagram...but basically we moved about 20 sheep up & down an open laneway. One side was a fence & the other was open with a slope to 2 dams, which are a big draw for the sheep. There were a couple of dogs tied up & people walking through every now & then, all of which added pressure. Trim settled very nicely. Her job was to move in 180's to hold the sheep along the fenceline. They strung out a couple of times & I had to help her, but she did really well for a young dog & it was a very worthwhile exercise to watch her settle & hold them calmly. The other, was simply getting her to push the same number of sheep into a corner, again with the dams as a draw. On 2 sides, other sheep were being worked & again people wandered through. I let her hold them to me for a min or two & then backed out myself & she had to squeeze in through the fence & the sheep & then get out to cover to stop them breaking for the dam. It started a bit hairy at first, but again she settled very nicely & managed to push & hold them well. It was fun to do something different & a good learning experience for both of us.

Did anyone get any pics of Zest? anyone?

Katey, Zest & Jester were on death row at Hawkesbury Pound & are now in foster care, waiting for their forever homes & Tricky came out of Canberra Pound & is now in a permanent home.

They are excellent! I put them here (well not all 200 that he took, LOL: http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?showtopic=35032 That 3rd photo of Jester is awesome...reminded me all over again just how much talent he has! Can't wait to see what he does next time & Seven too Thanks again for coming...you certainly helped make my day!

LOL, yep name change, partly b/c it didn't include Trim...but mostly b/c vpzn was a STUPID name! My name is Vickie & it wasn't taken...so why not ?

I'm just ON TOP OF THE WORLD! We had another great day herding today. Probably one of the most rewarding I've had so far. TRIM was great and she still amazes me each time with her talent. I still have so much to learn but I really feel like we are improvng each time. ZEST improved 100% from last week, he steadied up a bit & I was actually able to get him to stop a few times. Last week I wasn't sure, but this week, I know that he will work & could become a very useful dog. Next week I'm going to try him in the yards. JESTER (BC) and the 2 Doggleworths came. He is an absolute natural, right from the beginning & I'm sure they are (all 3 of them) still grinning from ear to ear. If someone wants to take up herding, this is the dog to do it with. He is GREAT! TRIXIE (Kelpie) (now TRICKY) and her new owner also came. Tricky took a few minutes to get it, but once she realised that she could move the sheep, had the time of her life! It's great to know they're hooked enough to come back & I know they will do very well. And last but by no means least, I had the pleasure of meeting CoolibahKoolies, whose support in my fostering stint has been invaluable. I'm just sorry that it was so busy & we didn't really get a chance to have a good long chat. But I'm so glad you came & hope to be able to repeat whenever you're in Sydney. I had a ball, not just working my own little girl, but starting the 3 rescues as well. What a buzz! Who needs drugs? There were a heap of cameras there, so we should have some nice pics soon! PS - Riley...you missed out big time girl

Thanks for that Denise. I find it an interesting subject. I wanna be a Rooster! Right now I'll just settle for any semi reliable flanks, but I would like to get to that point one day. The best response I heard about inside flanks was this: Q: Aren't you worried inside flanks will teach your dog to cross? A: My dog will only take a flank if I tell it to. If I don't want it to cross...I won't give it the flank. It'll be interesting. A number of triallers that I train with atm, are obsessed with teaching their dogs to drive & cross-drive right now. So maybe things will change.

Thanks Denise, That all makes sense. It'll be interesting to see what she does with lighter sheep (that is if we can get anywhere near the bridge ). The ones at training need to be pushed. They use obstacles as their safety haven. I'll join the WSDA this week. ;) It'll probably scare the sh*t out of me when I read the rules. :D Another question for you, since you mentioned crossing. Do you ever teach inside flanks to your dogs? No-one up here does it as they are terrified it will encourage the dog to cross.

COME BACK THIS WEEKEND!!! It'll be good for her ;) And you'll get to meet 2-3 more lovely DOLers. ETA...and before you say no, YOU HAVE TO! I just found out I'm geting a new lense tomorrow 70-300. I need you there to use it! WOOHOO!

Yup. I guess that's bad? I'm thinking I'd better learn some rules, before I enter her in a trial. Any help much appreciated! Are the 3 sheep rules on line anywhere? I haven't been told different by anyone. Only comments that I got was that that it's good that she was so willing to walk up after the sheep her first time, so I assumed it was OK. Mostly she wants to walk up a bit & then if I let her, she'd backtrack & fly around to the head as they go through.

Back to your original question Chezzyr, I spend quite some time with all of mine, teaching them about gates, doors & backs of cars. I usually teach a "get back", which means take a couple of steps back before I open the gate/door/car. Under no circumstances are any of them to go through without the release word. I just went through this with Zest, the foster. the very first day, he bolted out the front door. Luckily it was to be with me, not to escape. We worked on it every day (except the car haven;t done that yet) and now he knows like the others that he is to step back when I open the gate/door. And he knows that sometimes he gets to come & sometimes he doesn't. I also proof this on the side gate, where I go out & leave it open a little & pretend to do something around the side. All 4 dogs now know that under no circumstances are they to go through that gate without my release. I don't actually connect it with a "stay" nor use that command. A few years ago, my hb left our side gate open. I only realised when I saw Noah sitting at the front door (little sh*t). I ran out the front & around to the side & there was my little Zeus, obedient boy that he is, standing at the gate, 2 steps forward, 2 back, over & over again. Of course we should all take every possible precaution, but every bit of training helps.

Had to post this for you Riles (BTW, it's called a bridge, if you're gonna hang around these places, you gotta learn the lingo) ;)

FAST!!! :p He isn't very stylish but very keen & very trainable. He responded well to pressure from the handler. I'll keep taking him as long as I have him. He'll definitely work, it's hard to tell how though & he's still very young. But I was very encouraged by today.

and absolutely last one! (that is unless you want more :p ) another funny coloured one... DA NA NA NA! ZEST!