Vickie

This could also be a physical thing Myszka. It may be uncomfortable for him to lower himself while after the ball. Of my 3, only one of them does this & I have always accreditied it to his physical structure, being long in the back & deep chested. He certainly has no less drive than the other 2 to get it.

That is awesome!!! I'm going to try this one, it looks like fun. Thanks for sharing.

Nope, wasn't directed at you...didn't even know he had back problems...or did flyball for that matter. It wasn't meant to be an attack or "directed" at anyone anyway, it was just meant to make people think...and realise than just b/c the limp has gone, doesn't mean the injury has. And also to realise that what is often classed as a number of injuries in one dog, is often one injury reoccuring. The other thing that happens is that dogs start to compensate for an injury by moving differently & protecting muscles, much the same as we do (I have a twisted pelvis from a back injury). So it's not just about letting the original injury heal, but reteaching them to use related muscles that they may have stopped using.

Lots of good advice here. Only thing I would like to add is that I think one of the biggest injury related problems in dog sports is that when dogs do hurt themselves, they are often not rested sufficiently & a slight injury that should have been allowed to recover becomes a chronic one...often just b/c the people can't bear to miss their fix. I can't believe the number of times I see a dog in agility, lame one week, and out there again the next running. I always stick by the theory that if a dog is lame, it is hurt! and it generally won't heal enough in a week to be out there again, retearing that damaged muscle. The more your dog wants to work, the less likely it is that you will see signs of the injury. Unlike us, they don't take it easy, so need us to help. The other one is intermittent lameness. There is obviously a problem, but again, you get people who run them anyway...just b/c they weren't limping on the morning of competition/training. Sure enough they are limping after. Sorry, off my soapbox now...it just really pi**es me off & I really think it distorts the statistics of sports related injuries.

Here is the info Kelpiecuddles: Sheepdog Training Clinic with Bernard Ahrens (NZ) Dates: 2-3 October 2005 Should the numbers exceed available places, there may be an opportunity to arrange small group sessions/privates on 30/9 and 1/10/05. These sessions would be good for handlers and/or dogs with some herding experience. Venue: Bungendore (30 min east of Canberra) Cost: working spots - $160 for the weekend ($90 per day), auditors $45 weekend ($30 per day). Second dogs will be $50 (but may be limited if all working spots are taken) Camping: available at Bungendore Showgrounds ($10/site power/showers etc). A list of other accommodation/food places etc will be sent to participants. Bernard Ahrens is one of New Zealand’s top sheepdog trainers and triallists. He is a sheep and beef farmer, and has been training dogs for about 30 years and runs training days in New Zealand. Bernard has won 3 NZ titles, 10 Island titles and over 20 Island and NZ placings, and has represented NZ six times in Trans-Tasman tests against Australia. Bernard was in the NZ team that competed at the recent ISDS World Sheepdog Championships at Tullamore, Ireland, in July 2005, the first time NZ has competed at a World Championship. He ran 2 dogs in the NZ team of 5. He is bringing one of these dogs, Slate, over to Australia with him and will use her for demonstrations at the clinic. This dog will then be trialling in Australia for the rest of October, a testament to her versatility. The clinic is open to handlers/dogs at all levels. We hope to cover an introduction to driving, penning, shedding and trial handling if time permits. Since Bernard does not have experience working with loose-eyed dogs, the clinic will be limited to border collies, kelpies and coolies. To secure a spot please send an email to Karen Edwards with your name, email, phone no., address, dog’s name (and breed/age) and what herding experience you have had. Please also indicate your availability for the 30/9 and /or 1/10 if all working spots for the clinic are filled. Please send a cheque to Karen Edwards for the full amount and made out to “Bernard Ahrens” by 16 September.

Sounds like you have a great club KelpieCuddles! I had a good/interesting lesson last week. I have been frustrated for a while about teaching different types of people with different goals & trying to cater to them all. I have kind of been experimenting with changing peoples mindset about handling their dogs. It's amazing how just a few sentences can change the frame of mind someone is in and make all the difference. What made me start to think about it was a when I asked someone for advice about a difficult sequence we were trying unsuccessfully in agility. Just talking about it, with no practical demonstration, changed my mindset completely & the next time I tried it, despite physically doing the same thing, it worked perfectly...just b/c I was thinking about it differently. It's kind of hard to explain, but it worked. I tried some similar stuff in the lesson I taught last week & had amazing results, so I am going to start experimenting with this a bit more & see what happens. It may just be a way to teach all people, the way I would teach my own dogs & get through to them.

Honestly...I think much of the time, they just lack the experience to realise how important some foundations are. They see them as boring, or "it'll be fine, we'll work it out later". That's what I find hard in a big club...many of the people just want to have fun, and never envisage competing. It's hard to find a training method that suits those people as well as the ones striving for excellence. I am a firm believer that the better you & your dog perform, the more fun you will both have. Hard to teach this way & give people the quick fix they're looking for.

Just wondering how often & in what circumstances people would teach something in a class situation differently to what they would do with their own dogs? A couple of situations that come to mind are: teaching a certain method b/c the club that you instruct at uses & requires that method. teaching a method that is more generic & suitable to a wider range of dogs & owners, rather than one perfect for your particular type of dog & level of experience as a handler. How do you feel about teaching differently to the way you train? Do you think your students notice that you train differently? Do you worry about this? Do you ever have dogs in class that you'd like to take aside & show them "your" way? ETA (given Tilly's interesting reply): As a student, when you know this is happening, how do you feel about it? Have you ever approached an instructor to tell them you're serious & want to train competitively rather than for fun?

I had trouble with my boys when we first started agility, b/c they had been on my left for 4 years. We never did formal obed., it was just a habit. It took a while to get them comfortable working on my right. Trim? she's like a yoyo . Never stays still on one side for long. But she works equally well on both side in agility.

Tracey, in the clinic I did with him, there was quite a range as far as eye goes across the 3 breeds. It certainly wasn't a problem. I'm sure he would just prefer to work with breeds he has experience with, which may not include some of the very loose eyed breeds. ETA Pippi Bungendore is near Canberra

great news

Thanks Mjk, that's a lovely offer, one I hope I can take you up on one day. We're a bit out of control atm...I think it goes something like this: Hi, my name is Vickie & I am an addict! I have spent 6 hours driving, so far over a 4 day period & plan to spend another 6 over the next 4 days. By Saturday, Trim & I will have worked sheep 5 days out of 8, spent 12 hrs driving, an absolute fortune in petrol...and had the time of our bloody lives! I wonder of they have patches for this

All the best for today, I'm sure Joey will be fine. I think it's normal to be anxious when they go under anaesthetic. Luckily my vet is very tolerant of my obsessiveness. He is used to me by now, but still has a little chuckle & tells me to ring as often as I want.

Is that a Barrington Tops photo? I have a similar one of Noah...seems so long ago now. Some of the best pics I have were taken that week.

How 'bout a franchise in Sydney ;) ?

Awesome photos MJK05 & KJ ;) Mjk05, sounds like an awesome experience for you & your kelpie, you are so lucky to get opportunities like that.

for being selected with not one, but BOTH of her agility dogs to represent ACT in the Agility Nationals! Well Done & Good Luck (even though I'll be cheerin' for NSW )

WOW Kavik, Zoe has the loooongest legs. She is lovely. I don't think I've seen pics of her before.

I had a long chat with someone today about this...and I think finally understand it & the situation it would be appropriate in. some pics I took today: http://www.pbase.com/zenotri/27th_august_training have a look at this 13 week old kelpie, she's going to be very talented:

LOL, well, you want to see her work, but I am the obvious handicap. The clinic I recently did with Bernard Arends was awesome. Watching her work in the hands of someone truly talented was a really amazing experience for me. I see what you mean about this. The dogs I am thinking of are just being started now, so I guess what I am referring to is what is naturally in the dog, rather than a training issue yet. I understand what natural break is, but I still have a hard time getting my head around the reasons for it. Can you describe situations where & why the dog would need to give ground? Does it mean that the dog is too close? I am still struggling with understanding the picture of the dog giving ground & leading the sheep towards an obstacle. It just doesn't make sense to me. In what situation is this required in on a farm situation? I need to get to some trials & watch & learn & talk to people more. I will try this exercise & see what happens...although I suspect I know . I'm pretty sure there is NO natural break in Trim. I'll let you know.

I think (hardly an expert, though ) of square flanks as being MORE than going around the circle. The dog should actually move out further from the sheep as it goes to flank- so if you draw the circle round the sheep, and then the dog's path- it has more square corners. This is one I'd like to hear some discussion on. I just found a book I really like. Derek Scrimgeour - Talking Sheepdogs. In it he says this: "Square flanking is a description I often hear used to describe a good flank. I believe this is misleading. Certainly the dog must not tighten on the sheep when he flanks. I also believe that he must flank the sheep in a round shape maintaining constant contact & attention. When your dog starts his flank the first few inches are crucial. With the correct round shape the sheep will be watching the dog but not scared enough to move away. If your dog loses eye contact with the sheep they will feel that he has lost control - and they will be right. Square flanks are less trouble but may induce a feeling in the sheep that your dog is a little bit weak. They may stop or start to challenge him. Tight flanks can be ruled out as they are not useful in any case. I will contradict myself here, though, by saying that in exceptional cases a square flnak can be a very useful tool to have in reserve - with shedding for instance when you want the sheep to feel they are not being controlled. I have a special command that I use to ask for a square flank but this is only trained after teh dog has settled into a routine where round flanks are the norm." Comments anyone? Some of the dogs I see up here are very square and as a result do seem to have trouble moving the sheep at times and often seem to lose contact. LOL, we have the opposite problem, but seem to be getting it under control.

I don't think that's a BC thing, I think its a working dog thing. You're right of course. I should have expanded it to other breeds. Although I must say, I feel BC's in general can be more reactive in response than kelpies. Kelpies seem to be able to ignore this behaviour more easily & work around it whereas I find BC's more likely to need to do something about it to pull the dog in line. A generalisation I know, but one I have observed quite a lot. ACDs I dont really have any experience of so couldn't say.

LOL, you missed heaps Denise: "What is natural break? What does a dog do when it has heading ability? And what is the footwork that one is looking for? (and do any of these have anything to do with "square flanks"?)" I'm not having a go at natural break, but will try the others as they relate to my dog from others explanations of how she works...feel free to explain further or modify my attempts. A dog that has natural heading ability is always watching/working the head of the sheep, rather than any other part of the sheep. The saying goes, where the head goes the rest will follow. A dog that is working the head will fly out around the sheep to head them off & turn them back when they look like breaking. Usually a dog working the head is proactive, rather than reactive. I have seen this to be a problem as well as an asset. We have a few dogs at training who will not come off the head & as a result can't move the sheep. They are always darting around and can be so focussed on the head that they forget the handler in the equation. Trim is a very good heading dog, she never stops reading the sheeps head & will often identify a lead sheep that she needs to work. Footwork...don't really know how to explain this one. Again, in relation to Trim who I have been told has "fancy footwork", it usually refers to the little half steps she takes, always ready to dart one way or the other as required. The closest analogy I can think of is to get a ball in front of your dog & wave it from side to side & watch their footwork...then magnify it a thousand times I don't think either of these really relate to square flanks. A square flank is where the dog, when asked to move around the sheep, turns it's head sideways and moves in an arc, rather than moving towards the sheep first. Best way to picture this is to imagine a circle around the sheep. A square flank moves along the path of that circle, rather than in an oval shape. The distance of the circle from the sheep will differ with different sheep in different situations. Cross driving. Picture a paddock, you stand still and have the dog drive the sheep directly away from you, giving a flank command, you ask the dog to turn the sheep, say 90 degree angle, like you're going to make a square. So I guess it's basically the dog moving the sheep somewhere other than towards or away from you. And for Kateshep: yes the cast is the dog moving around the sheep to fetch them to you and is the first step in a 3 sheep trial. A cast is really just a larger flank. and balance is different to heading. Balance is the point that the dog needs to be to hold/fetch the sheep, usually to the handler. Only the dog can determine where balance is, and again can be in different places depending on the sheep & the situation. Many people get into trouble always stopping their dog on balance, b/c the people cannot accurately judget the point of balance like the dog can. So you can & people do, upset their dogs natural balance by interfering with it.

The other thing about BC's is that when they're working...THEY'RE WORKING! And they have no tolerance for other dogs irritating them regardless of breed. My 3 are all like this, in herding, agility, obedience or even just fetching a ball. They take their job, whatever it may be, very seriously and are very intolerant of distractions.

I find it really interesting you say this, because I've noticed that about BCs can be different too. A number of bully owners I've talked to have agreed that their dogs have a particular aggression problem with BCs, and we came to the conclusion it was because BCs often seem to have a tendency to give other dogs "the eye". Which some dogs (bullies in particular) interpret as a deliberate challenge. It's interesting to hear it from the other side. You think the "eye" invites a challenge, my BC's will tell you it's the staffy JUMPING on their head as an invitation to play that invites the challenge Seriously tho...I really think they just have opposing body language. Mine are fine with mature staffies, or pups, just not the adolescents, unless they have grown up with them. I once had a BC & a staffy at the same time...they were so gorgeous together and I miss them both so much. :p