Vickie

see that's my point...how do you determine which strengths and weaknesses have been influenced by the sheep or the trainer & which are natural in the dog. Even if they are natural attributes...has a single incident affected them? What I am trying to say is that I think it's different for each dog depending what their natural attributes are and what their reactions are, or not, to their experiences. Some examples: The first time I took Trim to Erskine Park, she was charged by a sheep in a yard. Did that impact her? She bit that sheep on the nose & has never been challenged since. So that has changed the way she is as a dog? or has it? Incidentally her sister was knocked to the ground by a ram around the same time. This was on a property with "real" sheep. Her response was the same as Trim's and to my knowledge she has not been challenged since. Did that make them stronger? Did it not change them? If they had not responded & won the battle would it have made them weaker? A couple of weeks ago, Shine (16 weeks) slipped her collar & joined Trim & I in the paddock. She had shown moderate interest in the few sheep she had seen from the other side of the fence to that date & I believe was coming to me, not the sheep. Once she came in & the sheep responded to her, she went around them, balanced a bit & fetched & was calm enough that I could kind of stop her and catch her. I think I was lucky that I had a friend there who warned me not to panic as she got behind the sheep. It ended up a really great (although unplanned) experience for her. To me that is instinct at its best & I am really excited about what I saw from her in those few minutes. But...it could have ended up a bad experience. She could have chased them all over the paddock, she could have been hurt, they could have not responded to her. Again, how would I judge which of these things, had they happened, would have changed her? I'm not sure how much the actual sheep we started on have impacted Trim's ability. I am sure that the method she was started in had a big impact & was right for her. She has a lot of instinct, so letting her work it out without overcommanding her was the right thing for her. I think if she had been started by someone who overcommanded in the beginning she could be a very different dog. I like that she was allowed to go into a paddock almost immediately, rather than be stuck in a yard for months and I think this was good for her. I agree with that statement. However, I also think that a dog does need to learn how to handle sheep that will run, unless it is going to work dogged sheep all its life. This may be OK if the only sheep the dog sees are the dogged ones, but put that dog in a trial, and if it's never learned to handle sheep that run, then how will it know how to control those sheep? It would be an exceptional dog (and handler) that could manage sheep under those circumstances. Honestly I don't think it should be that exceptional. Part of being a talented sheepdog is the ability to read the sheep and knowing when to apply & release pressure. This will differ in every situation, depending on the type/number/experience of the sheep, the area they are in and any draw they have in that area. A dog working protective ewes & lambs obviously needs to work very differently to how they normally would & their instinct/ability to read the sheep tells them to do this. I agree that the best work for a dog is real work with real sheep, but like I said before, there are people in Sydney who only have access to dogged sheep & every now & then they actually beat the country folk in 3 sheep trials. It can & does happen, even if they have to work their butts off to do it.

I just wanted to comment on the discussion about suitability of sheep at training centres. I think it is worth saying that there are a number of urban people with working bred dogs in Sydney (and I'm sure other cities) who have no other access to sheep other than "training sheep". Many of these have trained their dogs from scratch to trialling (3 sheep/yard) level successfully and I see no reason why this won't continue in the future. My non-expert opinion is that beginner dogs and more importantly beginner handlers generally need quiet sheep to start on. It is not practical to think that every well bred dog with a non experienced handler could be let loose in a paddock with flighty sheep to learn. I think in most cases that would be chaos. I think whether it works is often going to depend on the the hardwiring of the dog and the ability of the handler to deal with that dog's natural strengths & weaknesses. Some dogs will have problems with training sheep who will see a weakness in the dog & try to take them on, another dog with those same sheep will have no problem. Same with natural distance, or ability to get to the head etc. I think the components that make up each dogs style are too complex to make definitive statements about "all beginner dogs" reacting to "all training sheep". (The exception I make to this is dogs who have no real instinct, talent or style and I strongly object to people who spend months/years letting their dog chase the sheep around when there is no obvious sign of any progress at all.) I think the problem is more apparent when people get to a more advanced or trialling level where the sheep are consistently different in trials to those at training. Even then, if the dog is reading the sheep correctly will adjust the way they work based on the sheep. Trim has spent most of her time working on "dogged sheep" and I am the first to admit that she works too close. She has to, to move them, even though she has quite a bit of presence. But the few times she has been on "real" sheep, she has worked much further off, at an appropriate distance. I think her ability to read the sheep is part of her instinct/hardwiring and it is a definite strength in her. Other dogs may not have this strength, but may have another in an area she is weak in. Not sure if any of this makes sense and I'm no expert anyway...it's just what I think. I guess my point is...I don't want new people to herding to automatically think that they should never go to a training centre because it will ruin their dog. LOL, the reality is, with us as inexperienced handlers, our dogs are never going to reach the potential they would anyway. It sounds negative but I think it's realistic. I like working my dog & I am trying to learn as much as I can. My next dog will be better because I will be better. I had huge ambitions of 3 sheep trialling when I started. I may do it one day with Trim, I may not. I certainly believe it's possible, but it probably requires more dedication/time than I currently have to do it successfully. In the meantime, with my current ambitions, I am quite happy to work my dog at a training centre and learn as much as I can.

Couldn't agree more, the most common example are things such as agility and obedience competions. To the untrained eye the dogs look as if they would do anything at anytime no matter what the 'non-competition' environment happens to have as stimulants. Drop the same dog and handler in a strange place with plenty multi stimulus distractions, then see what happens. I don't really understand the analogy here? I think good sheepdog handlers often do make dogs look better, regardless of the environment they are in. Good handlers know how to read the sheep and will often use what is natural/instinct in the dog as well as their strengths to move sheep. This is why a good handler can get some pretty impressive stuff out of a talented dog who has had little training. I'm not sure you can say the same for agility/obedience? An untrained dog with a good handler is still an untrained dog. There is no "instinct" to use in agility/obedience. Sorry if I have misunderstood, but I just don't get it?

Just reread the thread. Sounds like you are not sequencing yet, so a working spot wouldn't be appropriate anyway as sequencing is a prerequisite for a working spot. The good news is...your next agility dog won't ever do these behaviours. My current dog is every bit as motivated, but she's focussed rather than silly. I made sure from day one that she knows she is not to bark at me & under no circumstances is she EVER to nip at me, whether or not my handling is crappy. I know some people won't agree, but I will/would correct any of my dogs if they ever tried to nip at me, it is not acceptable, under any circumstances. Once I adopted that attitude with Noah, he stopped doing it.

Reading your post brings back so many memories of when I started with Noah. He was so over the top & barked, jumped up & nipped at me. As Sidoney says, it's hard to diagnose over the internet. Making sure you can run with him is essential, I remember that being part of my solution with Noah. I also ran with a jump pole...not to hit him, LOL, but to protect my space. I got the suggestion from a trainer overseasa & it worked. Tug is a great idea, obviously so long as he already has a tug & more importantly a release. It sounds silly, but once you really make the decision that your dog will never nip at you again...they don't. You may want to look at this seminar: http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/pep-lill/1Rhonda.html It is in Vic in December. I am going to the one in Sydney. I think there are a couple of working spots left in Vic & unlimited auditor spots.

Hey Dasha! Thought I recognised that pic! I don't read much of DOL anymore but just got home from training, not reading for bed yet & found this thread. I've been out to EP a few times lately & am finding the sheep a bit better. B/C there are so few members out there now who are able/allowed to work outside the small yards, the sheep in the paddocks stay lighter most of the day as they haven't been worked much. Not as good as real sheep, but heaps better than they were. Seems like there are some changes happening out there & also talk of new sheep & turning them over more often. They are also talking about setting something up for yardwork there. See you there Sunday?

Oh come on, Vickie! You made some very interesting points, totally relevant to the topic, and things that were worth saying, even if people don't agree with them. Its all good stuff- why on earth would you delete it? Honestly...probably mostly b/c I'm just having a really bad day. As you can tell, I'm VERY passionate about sheepdogs & herding & I will continue to be so. But the reality is, I don't have enough experience yet & I find it hard to put my thoughts down here without sounding judgemental, something I have no right to be. I have no desire to make any more enemies due to my inability to express myself properly or some of my extreme views and I don't want anyone to mistake my passion for something else. MJK, you often have a great ability to say what I think, just better, and in a way that doesn't offend people. This forum doesn't really need my opinions on herding, there are plenty here with a lot more experience than me. I will be happy for a while to read & learn.

Kavik, it's quite a long read, but here is an article on different styles of working: http://www.herdingontheweb.com/workingstyles.htm

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Damn, I just got home & obviously missed out on heaps...I guess I'll never know what, as a lot of it was deleted. I guess I will stand alone as someone who has concerns about people wanting to let their dogs "play" with sheep.

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LOL, it kind of looks like an easy course on video, but it wasn't, there were a few non-novice challenges IMO. There were only 3 qualifiers, many many dogs went off course from one or more of about 5 traps & there were a few weird lines as well. If you didn't have a reliable lead out, you were basically stuffed. Did you see my RFP? LOL, worked like a dream, except that I probably didn't need it as the line was right when we got there...but no time to think...I just had to do as planned. I'll draw it for you when I see you.

Added the video http://www.youtube.com/?v=sGMQmG9_8y4

Thanks everyone for your congrats, I'm back on earth today. It's nice to share my brags with you guys. We have a bit of training to do to get ready for Open next year and are looking forward to it.

Trim & I ran a jumping trial tonight and we managed to get another first place quallly for her title! We have had an exceptional start to our trialling, both in agility & jumping. Out of our first 7 Novice runs, she has 6 first places and 2 titles. When I think back to how long and how much effort it took me to achive the same thing with my 2 boys, it is really amazing. I am so very PROUD of her, she is such a good girl, honest, biddable, athletic and just about as sweet as can be. ;) I can't wait for next year, Open will be tougher but sure to be rewarding & fun with Trim by my side, trying her little (big) heart out.

Well I was on DOL break, but I heard that there is too much going on here that I would be interested in, so I'm taking a little break from my break Here's some more pics of gait: I know some of them are repeated in this collage, but I am too lazy to make another one: There is a good example in here of her body moving one way while her head looks another way. This is about the closest pic I have of her in a non working gait...as she is leaving the paddock, although her head is still down: ready to move in any direction: standing:

This is a pretty good, simple article discussing diet & exercise & links to problems with hips & joints. It certainly makes you think: http://www.showdogsupersite.com/hips.html

I don't do flyball, but train agility with a lot of dogs who do both. One of the problems I see is that flyball is almost the opposite of foundation gridwork that should be done to teach the dogs to jump properly for agility. Gridwork is basically changing the heights, distances between jumps & angles of jumps, so that the dog learns to jump a correct trajectory which is not only better for joints, but it is more efficient, quicker and also prevents them from knocking bars. Flyball jumps are always the same height, same distance apart & in a straight line. I don't see any reason not to do both, but would not train flyball for a year & then start agility.

Hi KC, I certainly didn't mean to imply that you were using too much physical force, and I'm sorry if you took it that way. I guess what I was talking about was more along the lines of what KelpieI is saying. It's easy when training something like this to create uncertainty, especially in a puppy. This uncertainty can make a dog cautious & can impact on the trust you have in your relationship...something that you should be using her puppyhood to build. I have no problem with the exercise, I have taught my 3 to do it. But I did leave it until they were more grown up & had developed trust in me & a work ethic. JMO

How old is she now? I would be careful with stuff like this on a puppy if you're not sure what you're doing. I always get worried when people are doing stuff too advanced on puppies, especially since you want to build her drive for agility. It's so easy to control them to much to the point of shutting them down a little.

I know this is stating the obvious, but since I witnessed a near fatal accident with one of these stakes last week, I figure it's a worthwhile warning...Please make sure they are completely secure in the ground, especially if the dog is likely to want to take off.

Great news! What a relief for you. I'm so glad she's fine. PS I only just got your message, I never hear the phone always seem to be outside when it rings.

Ditto. If you go and find one that has been clipped for a few years in a row, you will see the effects.