Vickie

Sorry you are feeling picked on. FWIW, I don't think anyone is picking on anyone, I think people are just using the discussion to justify their own beliefs & methods, based on what they have been taught. Please...keep talking, listening is no fun at all . This is general (not directed at you K&P) In a sense, I agree with Jesomil, what you do & want will depend on what your goals are. However, my goal is neither trialling nor training to have fun. My goal is to attempt to do justice to my dogs potential (LOL, although it will probably take me 3-5 dogs to realistically do this, given my status as a beginner). I don't think some methods of training for trials necessarily bring out the best in a dog, nor do they make them suitable for real work. There are plenty of successful triallers around whose methods I do not aspire to. Maybe I am naive but I believe that if a dog is trained correctly, it shouldn't make a difference what they are being trained for. I also think that if people start to train specifically for trialling, it is inevitable that they will also start to breed specifically for trialling & this can lead to the demise of certain breeds (or watering down of certain desirable traits). Right now, in Australia my breed exists in 3 different forms and as time goes by the gap between them will widen. I think this is very unfortunate as IMO iwas perfect as it was. LOL, there is my inexperienced philosophy for the day. Pick on me if you like

Sorry Kavik, I guess I led the discussion astray a bit. To bring it back on track...here is how things were explained to me by someone I respect & admire: A stop can be initially taught 2 ways one is to physically block the dog from getting to the sheep & putting a command on it two is to use the dogs instinct to stop naturally & put a command on it. I was taught & used method two. I think this method obviously depends on the natural instinct & talent of the dog to work. The way it was shown to me was to get the dog in a position to fetch the sheep to you & back into the corner. The dog should naturally slow & stop because there is nowhere else to take the sheep if they are hardwired to fetch them to you. As they are stopping, you give the command. Obviously the more instinct they have the more likely they are to do this. (LOL, I know it works b/c I used it on a 16 week old, unplanned, first time on sheep, escapee in a paddock about a month ago) Then...there comes a time when the dog should be expected to stop regardless of whether they feel it is the rigt thing to do or not. That is when I was told you need to make sure it happens, beacuse by this time they know the command. This can be hard if they have a lot of instinct, as at some point your command needs to override their instinct. I guess it's the same with side commands. It is easy to get a dog to go around whichever way you want if they have a strong sense of balance in the beginning, just by where you step or by raising your arm/rake & then putting a command on it. But again there comes a time when this is not enough and they will need to go a direction that goes against their instinct. I have had a hard time with Trim & off balance flanks. She has a lot of instinct & I let her balance way too long before asking for off balance. Like I said, these are not my methods, but hopefully they accurately describe what I have been taught. Lots of people don't use instinct to teach commands & just make teh dog do it physically. I wanted to use her instinct, it just makes more sense to me. I guess it's kind of like training/teaching the behaviour as step one & proofing it as step two.

Just to clarify..."That'll do", means come away from the sheep to me, then I will choose what we do next. It was only in the very beginning that I resent her as a reward for coming more often than not. Like I said, I'm not saying this is right (nor am I recommending it), it has worked for us, I just know some people think it's a bad idea. I guess she knows what happens next by whether I walk away or resend, but it still means come to me regardless.

I'm no expert to give advice, but would like to share a mistake I have made, LOL. I think I've taught Trim that "steady" means continue to go fast, LOL. Last time I worked her, she was not backing off when she should have & I was saying "steady". It had no effect & she kept coming too fast. So my tip is, when your dog is doing the right thing...put a command on it. i.e. "steady". Otherwise you will name the behaviour you don't want (like I have done). I don't use "come" as I would at home and I also didn't use "lie down" around the house until I taught it on sheep. It is so easy as a beginner in herding to put a command on a behaviours you don't want. I think Stop is a classic example. The amount of people you see having to give this command 10 times for it to happen is amazing. I was told to teach stop, only on sheep & to use the instinct of the dog to teach it. All in all this has worked pretty well for us. I would also like to get people's opinions on this one: I taught "that'll do" initially as leaved the sheep & we will go to another area & recast. It made her enthusiastic to recall & I have no trouble calling her off sheep now. She will call off instantly usually but then come back to me & reposition to cast again. I either recast or walk off & she comes with me. Is this bad? Should "that'll do" mean we are finished completely? I don't really have a problem with my method...it works, but people have said it is wrong to teach this way? Anyone have an opinion on this? Sorry to sidetrack Kavik, but it is relevant to the thread.

Canine Fun Sports holds Agility classes every Tuesday & Friday at St Ives Showground. Advanced 9am, Intermediate 10am & Begineers 11am. They aslo run some classes at Castlereagh on other days if that is a better location.

Have you actually tried her on sheep? It is very easy for a dog to be frightened of livestock before they have switched on to them. You could turn a pup right off by letting them be eye balled by strong stock from the other side of the fence. Dogs usually switch on when they discover that they can "move" the sheep. So even if you think she may be scared from a distance, you may find she has a totally different reaction if given an opportunity to use her instinct. Or maybe not...depends on the dog, but it's worth a try.

Great news!

I had some barking and howling issues at my last house with my 2 BCs. I did some research & here's what I found, Some issues & resolutions: They howled, every time I left the house, for between 1-3 minutes. I started leaving them inside for a few months after we moved & they just don't seem to do it anymore, even though they are outside now while I am out. They barked 15-30 mins before I usually got home & 5-15 mins after I left. I stopped making a fuss of them before I left & when I got home. I realised I was producing all this adrenalin & they had nothing to do with it. I realised that it was me, LOL not them who needed the big farewell on leaving or a big greeting on return. They barked when certain people walked down the laneway, I knew some of the people & asked them to greet the dogs calmly as they walked by, using their names. They always barked at children in the laneway, I hid & found out kids were teasing them through the fence on their way to/from school. I stuck my head over the fence, explained to kids not to do it & threatened where necessary. They always barked at a couple of dogs, I worked out that said dogs used to let out a yip on approach & owner let them fence bark all the way along the fence. I spoke to owners & politely asked them to go another way for a little while on their walks, they were happy to oblige. I also moved house, having no laneway makes a big difference. My BC's have always been well exercised & stimulated through training. None of the above issues had anything to do with lack of exercise. They were habits I allowed to form quickly which took longer to break. I'm always wary of using adversives for behaviours if you don't really understand what is causing them. Sometimes we are really just verifying that they are right to be worried. I think sometimes when people yell at dogs for barking (I know how hard this is not to do), the dogs just see them as joining in. Anyway I know my situation was different, but I thought it may help to share it, in case there are some similariteis between the 2. I'm not saying mine never bark now, but it's certainly not the habitual barking it was. My advice is to find out exactly when & why each episode happens as it will help to form a solution.

Or they could keep a 10/10 at a 10/10. LOL, believe it or not, I think there are plenty of dogs currently running their optimum speed. Try running 17 obstacles (+the 4 metres in between) in 13/14 seconds flat. The dogs physical speed is only half the equation. As a handler you need to be able to think & communicate at that speed as well. Just like the dogs I think we can reach an optimum level at which we can do this (and some days we just perform way below our optimum, despite what the dog gives).

Do you/she consider a NRM an aversive? I always struggle with this concept. It always makes me think of 2 extremes: A dog who is always externally rewarded & never gets aversive but the reward is medium-high level. A dog who is not externally rewarded but very rewarded by activity & gets NRMs. It would be very easy for the 2nd of these 2 to be the more motivated & consistent dog. Personally I use NRMs but I always think of them as communication rather than aversive. If you have a biddable dog who want to work for you, I think they see them as communication. Maybe they see them as aversives but bounce back quickly? LOL, I don't know.

Yes, that is exactly what I feel has happened My dog generally runs to me for the tug (unless she thinks we may do the course agin immediately & then she lines up) but this I guess was my original question. I don't feel that the running to me for tug is a "reward". I think of it more as a release, a habit if you like. I started doing it because it enabled me to get her collar & lead on and keep her attention on me while the ring recommences. She likes it b/c it is what we always do, it is fun & it is the next best thing to going back in the ring. Most importantly I think it gives her something to do with all that post run adrenalin. I can see what you are saying here. I think it kind of depends on the dog though. If a dog is already at a level 8-10 (of a 1-10 drive rating) going into the ring, what benefit would it serve?

WOW, so much to respond to...such a small lunch hour to do it in, LOL. Some very interesting points raised, thanks everyone.

I think self rewarding is something different, that would indicate that she may do it by herself or do something according to her wishes rather than mine. I think the emphasis is more on the "with me"...but then again she will run just as enthusiatically for someone else, so maybe not? LOL, that was the idea...Sounds like you have your rewards with Pippi defined & working very well. here's another idea to throw out there: I think reward values change depending on the work ethic of the dog and/or their suitability for the activity.

LOL, I knew someone would ask that. I did actually stop tugging with her for 4-5 months a while ago & she was just as enthusiastic as ever, so I believe she would...and like I said, I'm not sure I am using tug as a reward or that she sees it as such. In fact I have run a couple of her family members who will not take any food or tug during agility, even though they are great tuggers outside of it for fun. That's a tough one with your staffy, I hope the program you are doing works. I don't think I'm really getting at anything, was just curious to hear people's perceptions of what their dogs rewards are. It's always great to share ideas around. Sometimes we learn things that hadn't occurred to us before.

Just out of curiosity, how many variations on treats have you tried Kavik? I just remembered a funny story. A friend of mine teaches agility, she had a student come for a lesson one day with a dog she didn't feel was sufficiently motivated by the wide variety of treats she had brougt to the lesson. The student was made to go home & asked to return the next day with the BIGGEST cooked steak she could find for another lesson. I saw the before and after dog...it was truly amazing what a couple of months training with a giant steak did to that dog.

I have been thinking about this a bit since the weekend & wanted to hear others views on it. A number of people commented on Trim's tugging after her runs at agility trials on the weekend. Most comments were centred around tugging being her reward for agility. She is a very enthusiastic tugger & it's what we do when she finishes a run. She loves to tug at any time (except before we go in the ring), but never quite as enthusiastically as after a run. It got me wondering whether it really is a reward for her or not. I tend to think of it as more of a release mechanism than an actual reward, something to focus all that after-run adrenalin on (for both of us). It's a minute or 2 where nothing else exists for either of us, except the game we are playing. I don't believe she ever does agility just to get the tug, I think her reward is doing the course with me. I seem to remember a discussion a long time ago about this but can't remember the details. I know there are dogs who do the course (or another activity) for food or tug...I'm just not sure mine is one of them. I am not disputing that she finds tugging rewarding, just whether it is "the reward" & whether in fact it is possible for a dog to find the ultimate reward in the work rather than something external to the work.. I often get asked questions about motivating dogs, my response is that the ultimate motivator will often differ depending on the dog and that it is important to find your dogs unique customised food/game. Unfortunately many people aren't willing to go to the lengths sometimes necessary to find/train that "ultimate" & it shows in what they get from their dog. Thoughts? What do you consider your dogs ultimate reward is?

Well, I'll let Sam tell you how she did. But I will say I thought she had a pretty good day today and she should be very proud of herself & her boys for doing such a great job in their first trial. Trim & I had some great runs. We only got 3 Qualifications, but had some really awesome runs (better than the Q'ing ones, LOL) where we just got one fault. I have retrained her contacts recently & I was very proud of what she did over the weekend. Overall, We only had one "disaster" run and the rest were pretty damn good. Shine did some mega tugging ringside & found lots of new puppy friends (as well as all the humans who want to take her home), so she had a great weekend as well. It was lovely to meet Amelia Gusgem, she is just adorable.

I will come & have a look, the first time I ever saw it was at the CC Expo & it loked like great fun. To be honest I am a little hesitant to start Trim in Flyball, even if I had the time. I know she would be good, she certainly has the speed and drive, but I am a little concerned about how it will effect her agility. She is only very young & currently has a fantastic jumping style & I am worried that she may flatten out after doing flyball. I know there are plenty of people who do both, but to be absolutely honest, most of the competitive flyball dogs I know knock bars in agility fairly consistently and tend to be a little out of control in agility. I have always thought Flyball would be a great things for dogs lacking a little in speed/motivation in agility...LOL this certainly doesn't apply to us. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this Caro.

Cool, I'm at work & can't access my mail here, so will read it when I get home. Only 2 days to go! Poor Trim, the last agility she did was at that demo & now I'm going to throw her into a 2 day trial, with no training. I'm pretty sure she'll blow the first few runs with feral behaviour, but hopefully she'll settle down by the 2nd day.

Awesome! Sounds like both you & the dogs are having a ball. I'll have to come & watch one of these days, sounds like a heap of fun.

Hi Sam I can imagine how excited you are, it's getting really close. I think you guys are going to be great, you have achieved so much with your boys in such a short time. Do you need a lift? I can probably take you both days if you like? Hi Gusgem, Huge congrats on your baby! I didn't even know you were pregnant...I am sure I have seen you in the last few months at least a couple of times. You must have carried very well, either that or I'm very unobservant. I hope you're enjoying being a Mum & your puppies are behaving themselves for you. Bryte has gone back home at the moment (we have a "husband imposed" 4 dog limit at our house, LOL - 3 permanents & a temporary)...I have Bryte's granddaughter here, she is a fabulous pup, 4mths & is enjoying coming to trials to watch her Aunty Trim & seeing what her future holds.

Thank you, that makes a lot of sense. I guess herding is so much about having patience & knowing when to wait things out, what better place to start practising that patience than right at the very beginning? I was watching a really nice pup start a few weeks ago with a beginner handler. It was just as you describe, she seemed unwilling to wait & let the pup work stuff out & every time she moved "to get things moving" she confused things. When she didn't interfere, he had no trouble, he was just a very calm pup & kept his sheep very settled, right from the beginning.

I just realised that was Part 2. LOL, I never read Part 1 until today, it is equally as insightful: http://www.workingaussiesource.com/stockdo...ow1_article.htm

I hope you don't mind tmc but I remember reading an article of yours a while ago & just went to find it. It's a great read & much of it is very appropriate to this thread I think...I think others will enjoy it. http://www.workingaussiesource.com/stockdo...ow2_article.htm One thing I would like to ask you.... Since many of us here do other things with our dogs and start training for these things at a young age, how much impact do you think this can have on their first exposure with sheep? None? Depends what we're doing? Depends on the dog & its level of instinct?

This is a really good point. I saw a perfect example of it last week. Trim & I took 3 "dogged" sheep out of a small yard, though a gate into another yard, then through a gate into a Novice size arena, through some yards to an Open size arena & through another gate to a huge paddock. It was very interesting to see the changes in her and the sheep as we moved from one area to another (and of course as they got closer to their friends in the paddock). With each increase in the size of the area, she worked further off. It wasn't until we pushed them through the last gate that she had a moment of panic and decided that they were getting away. She went right out wide & cut them off before they joined the mob & brought them back to me, LOL. As the sheep got closer to freedom, they got lighter & she responded beautifully (well right up to the end, ).