Vickie

OOPS, I mean I am happy & sad for you at the same time. I hope they do agility & I get to see how he goes. Great News!

He sounds a bit like my Noah, he (naturally) has a number of these elements. I have found over the years that habits are a really good thing for dogs like this. With enough repetition, without a choice, he no longer thinks about having a choice. Sure, I have taught him to play & take food but first I had to teach him to mind me. Nowadays (at 10) he is even affectionate occasionally. I'm no behaviourist, but my first thought would be to tie him to your waist & go about your day...for a few days. If this is a really bad suggestion, I'm sure someone will say so

Hi FreyaJade, the only difference between working & audit is that you take a dog in a working spot & run the courses. There will be a variety of people auditing, some very experienced handlers, some instructors and some more novice. Some people actually prefer to audit as they feel they can take more in without having to worry about their dog. It'd be great to have you there. Rhonda has a wealth of knowledge. I think sometimes I learn as much about dog training in general and about teaching people as I do about agility at seminars.

LOL, Uh Oh. You are talking to someone who spent 3 months trying to call her dog off birds when he was a pup . I wouldn't worry about his drive, I'm willing to bet he has a heap of it. I'm secretly hoping you hang on to him for a while . I'd love to see him start agility in Feb.

Cool! It's going to be a great weekend. I just read on the agility list that there is someone with a working spot who may not be able to use it, so there may be a 1 or 2 day working spot available in Sydney. PM me for contact details if you are interested.

Sydney - Start time will be 8am, check about paying on the day, I think it'll be OK.

I think the course is only complex because it incorporates a number of things. So where you might find just 1-2 challenges in a normal course, these ones have 5-6. They really need to do that to introduce the concepts. They are certainly not unachievable, they are based on foundation skills, but it can appear daunting all aty once at the beginning of the day. It's up to you...it is interesting though that when we run the course again at the end of the day, it is often the less experienced teams that run it the best. I think there are 2 reasons for this...1 is that the more experienced teams can have some bad habits to break & 2 is that less experienced people are like an open book, they can just learn! With more experience you question & compare eveything to what you have done before. JMO. I only go to a seminar to learn. I don't need to go there to talk about what I already know, that is not what I am there for. It's what I don't know that interests me. I love going when I have a pup and will certainly be using this one to come up with & revise my plans for Shine (6 mths). I always come away with a very defined plan for starting that pup. Like I said before, it's not about what to fix, but how to do it correctly in the first place. So yes, I think it is valuable for anyone. I think if more people did seminars in the early stages, rather than waiting till they are "serious" or competing, they would have a lot more success with their dogs.

Very interesting post! I'll look forward to reading the comments/discussion. One thing I think is often an important factor when working with fearful dogs is leadership. I think there are many dogs with fear issues that can be reduced significantly if they trust you, the leader, to be in control. I try to take that approach as much as possible. I have one fearful dog, but I like to think that he knows he doesn't have to worry too much these days as he knows I can deal with anything that might worry him.

Honestly I don't know. From the 6 seminars from international presenters I have done already, I can tell you this: Day One, there is usually an Open/Masters level course set up with a variety of specific challenges. Everyone walks the course and then runs it. After we run it, the instructors usually assesses what they are dealing with, asks us why we did certain things and gives a general talk about how the course was handled & things we will work on for the rest of the day. They course is then broken into segments & we pend the rest of the day learning the skills required to get through each segment. If people are having trouble with a certain thing, they will often deviate and set up some drills to show us how to build the skills up. Day Two is often a similar format and will usually incorporate some of the skills that were learnt on Day One. Auditors are included in all of this as they walk the course and are fully involved in the discussions on each topic. Inevitably, there is always a discussion/exercise on motivation, body language, consistency, contacts, obstacle discrimination, distance, setting line and leadouts on one or both days. I can't guarantee that Rhonda will follow this format...I don't know. To be honest, I don't much care. I have been doing agility for a number of years now and always leave a seminar armed with a thousand tips, things to work on & a heap of motivation. So to me it doesn't much matter what is taught because it is valuable to me. Even if I already know a concept that is taught, I can improve/perfect it, I can learn a new way to teach it to students, it can reinforce the value of it for me, I can learn a new way/situation to apply it etc. These people make a living out of teaching agility and they all follow the same basic concepts, which I guess is why they are the best. Sorry Myszka Maybe not the answer you were expecting but I hope the above makes sense. I would always recommend Day One, if you can only do one day.

There is a video link on this page of Rhonda winning the final with Blast on this page: http://www.usdaa.com/article.cfm?newsID=377

I'm not sure if I have posted this or not... Rhonda Carter arrives from the US next week & will be running 2 Agility Seminars. Sydney Dec 9-10 2006 Blacktown Canine Grounds Melbourne Dec 16-17 2006 Action Dogs Myuna Farm, indoors Rhonda is one of the top trainers & competitors in the US right now. She won the 22" USDAA Grand Prix recently and has represented the US & competed very successfully at the World Cup twice now. Apart from the fact that she is obviously an enormous success with her own dogs, I have heard & read that she is an outstanding teacher as well and her seminars are very popular in the US. I'm just wondering if anyone is interested in auditing? The working spots are sold, but there are auditor spots available. I do every seminar I can & thoroughly recommend it to anyone currently training a dog or thinking about it in the future. There will be a variety of dogs attending with a variety of styles. It is a great opportunity to take notes, ask questions & walk courses. It is also a valuable tool for those who instruct, agility or otherwise. I always come away from agility seminars so motivated. These people really know how to motivate a dog & more importantly know how to teach you to do it. To achieve this level of success requires consistency in training beyond what the average trainer is currently doing. Link with details is here: http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/pep-lill/1Rhonda.html if you are interested. Vickie.

Well, one thing about having such a fast dog is that you can't expect to run clean everytime, so I don't think many people are really intimidated. If we go clean, we usually win, but my timing has to be perfect, within 100ths of a second accurate...and if it's not (which is sometimes the case) well you saw it last night, she takes an extra jump on the way. The overall standard in agility in Aust. has increased so much in the last few years, we have plenty of competition right now. I just found out also...the Christmas party is not next week, it's the week after, so training will be as normal next week .

No problems, it was lovely to meet Cobber. He is a great little dog with what looks like a very solid & table temperament. He took the very exciting atmosphere in his stride & showed the right amount of interest. He is built perfectly for agility, let's hope somebody is at home thinking about him right now. I loved meeting Leila too, she is magnificent & so well behaved. LOL, thank you. I am very proud of Trim, considering how little training she has had lately, she ran very well last night. She really is my dream dog.

Yesterday? Flown? I agree give her time to settle in...a couple of days at the very least, before you start to have concerns about what her drives are. She has had a big upheaval from a safe, secure life to an unknown one. She has left her family, dealt with a cargo hold in a plane, is probably experiencing new foods that you are giving her, meeting your other dogs, and is probably trying to understand what her extremely enthusiastic new Mum is ttrying to teach her. That is an awful lot for an 8 week old pup to deal with. I would be spending the first week teaching her that you are her new safe, secure life. Some pups will just take a new environment & flight in their stride, others will need some help, lots of cuddles & not too many changes on a daily basis to feel secure again. Putting too much pressure on her now when she is not ready to deal with it, can lead to problems down the track. JMO Vickie

LOL, you can cuddle mine if I can cuddle yours She is 6 months, so a perfect age to be a playmate for him. I can introduce you to people & there's usually an announcement about the comp, so we can announce him to everyone then. I don't usually get there till 8, will try for a bit earlier...depends on HB & kids though

That's awesome!!! Yes the classes are 1 hour for beginners (7.30-8.30) and 1 1/2 for advanced (8.00-9.30). Only problem is...I'm pretty sure tomorrow night is the last night of training for the year & the following Thursday is the Christmas party. Holly? Tomorrow is comp night for advanced, so a great opportunity to take Cobber as people are standing around waiting for their turn to run the comp, so they have plenty of time to have a good look at him. Will also give you a great idea of what you are aiming for as an end result. I think training starts back in 1st or 2nd week of Feb. I'll look out for you guys tomorrow night, I can't wait to meet Cobber, I just can't get his little face out of my head.

Sas, Have you thought about taking him to Castle Hill on a Tuesday night (Flyball) or a Thursday night (Agility) when training is on. I'm pretty sure he would be impossible to resist for anyone currently looking for a dog. I'll be going to Agility this Thursday if you wanted to bring him along. I can make an announcement so people will know he is looking for a home.

nothing ugly about that lot Persephone! You know, last week I was at a farm & saw a pretty mangy looking Kelpie wandering around. I didn't pay it much attention. About an hour later I saw it working...I thought to myself "My God, that dog is magnificent!". Then it went back to hanging around the house & I continued to see it as the beautiful dog it was.

So I guess this is a Coolie thread now... Some really great photo's everyone! I must say I notice quite a variation in style in the various coolies I have seen work...bit I guess I can say the same for Kelpies & BC's. This is Dylan, I used to train with them. I would say he works with more eye & in a less upright fashion than the majority I have seen (although this photo doesn't show that).

Here you go Kylie...some sheepdog photos I have taken over the last 12-18mths (there's over 100 so should keep you busy ): http://www.pbase.com/zenotri/sheepdogs They are mostly BC's & Kelpies but there is at least one koolie in one of the trial galleries (shortcourse I think). Some of the older ones are huge (before learnt to resize) but if you click on medium they will be much smaller & load quickly

I don't think it should be confusing for either the dog or owner. There is a vast difference between the two. My dog changes completely in personality from one to the other. I use "Lie Down" for both agility & herding. It's probably not necessary for me to say it in agility, just a habit really. Actually I don't know anyone who does both really seriously. It would be hard I think to train and/or compete seriously in both.

So she is about the same size as Trim No, she has never tried to work me & I have never let her bark on course. My boys used to bark a bit in agility & I decided from day one that she would not. She is fairly quick, so no time to be rounding me up. She did nip me once in a trial when I got in her way . I'm pretty sure she'll never do it again .

Thank you! LOL, I sometimes think if she wasn't so absolutely beautiful when she works, I'd be a better handler, I spend far too much time admiring her & not enough watching the sheep. Yes, yes and yes! Poss looks lovely, very pretty. How tall is she? Trim is quite small, she measures 495 for agility & weighs 15kg. I haven't trialled her. I am not going to do ANKC & she is not ready for 3 sheep. Honestly, we don't spend enough time on sheep. Agility is so much easier to train for...anywhere...anytime.

Here are some pics of Trim, she has quite a bit of eye, a tendancy to be a little tight and has a fair amount of presence.

LOL, don't worry, I'm pretty thick skinned. These are not things I have come up with, they are concepts that already exist that I happen to agree with. Interesting thought. How do you think it would make them unsuitable for real work? An example would be teaching a dog to run a fenceline on an outrun. Their outrun is done in relation to the fence, rather than the sheep. I always wonder what those dogs do in a real situation when there is no fence? I watched my breeder send one of her dogs on an outrun on the weekend. The dog could not see the sheep and set off according to the direction she was told, trusting her handler that she would find the sheep. I have seen her do this many times, it is beautiful to watch her go out & then see her adjust as she spots the sheep. Another thing I wonder about is power. Many trial dogs seem to be lacking in power & I have even heard triallers discuss whether they have gone too far in their breeding and bred too much of the power out. There is a vast difference between working 3 flighty sheep in a small arena to pushing 3 stubborn ewes through a gate. I guess it is the dogs ability to read the sheep and adjust which should enable them to do both. Many of the triallers I see are very mechanical in the way they train & they do not allow the dog to make choices. I understand that dogs need to be obedient, but how can they be trusted to work out of sight if they are not able to make choices? Isn't the ability to make those choices based on their instinct part of what makes them a good sheepdog? If a dog needs to be micromanaged in a 3 sheep trial & is then bred from for a few generations, how do we know that this ability is still there? unless it is tested in a real situation? I would have thought that the majority of pups sold go to working properties whereas only a very few would actually trial. I have never heard of anyone breeding for trialling. Trialling is an avenue to show off your breedings skills. There would never be a big enough market to breed only trialling dogs. LOL, I think breeding for trialling exists in some form pretty much all over the world. I often hear/read people talk about "trial bred" Border Collies. I think it is inevitable, certainly in Aust. where the trialling is not quite representative of the real world. Wow, i didnt know there was a third. I know of the show line and working line. Which is the other?? I would say the working line is split in two. The working style of Aust. Working BC's is quite different to working lines Overseas. They do different things, are trained differently and have been bred differently. JMO