Vickie

Cool! It'll be interesting to hear how everyone goes with it & what issues arise. BTW...We want video

I do something every day with the girls, sometimes structured, sometimes more general life stuff. Only 5 mins at a time with Shine & a bit longer with Trim, depending on what we're doing. If we are working on something specific, we will do 3-4 sessions a day. With the boys, we just do bits & pieces here & there. I also try to do little things sometimes when all the dogs are out, either group things or work with one while the others are in a stay or restrained. For sheepwork I always give them time to think in the crate afterwards and they are basically crated when not working. Usually in agility I need a rest before they do, LOL.

I am ANYTHING but fit! My dogs...Yes, but definately not me. I think people spend a lot of time on obstacles & tend to think they should come first. I think the opposite. Once you have the focus, the obstacles are a lot easier to teach. Usually when people lose their dog on course, it is between obstacles. To me the challenge of agilityis moving between the obtacles rather than teh obstacles themselves. I guess it is worth saying as well that obviously there are steps to be taken before the above exercises. With Trim I made the mistake of always rewarding her when she was in front of me ( :D makes no sense, since she will rarely be facing me on course). So of course I had to fix that before I could even start training. I am trying not to make the same mistake with Shine, so she has learnt from Day One that all good things come when she is parallel to me. Her rewards only come from the hand that is presented to her and it has paid off because she is already more tuned in to moving parallel with me than Trim was at this stage. Variations/proofing on this would be: Take it to a quiet park Take it to a busy park Increase the distance of the poles Decrease the distance of the poles Decrease the distance I am running Increase the distance I am running If at any time I was not getting the enthusiasm I wanted I would reward every couple of steps until I was getting the speed & focus & then gradually build it up.

Sorry, they are taking a while to come up on Youtube. Shine's is there now, hopefully Trim's will be soon. I also resized them so the resized ones should come up quicker.

I thought it'd be fun since we have so many enthusiatic people wanting to start agility to post some foundation exercises for discussion. I am sure people have a heap of different things they do, so explanations & video if possible would be cool. Here is one I started today with Shine. It looks pretty basic...just running around with my dog...but that is what most of agility is & it is amazing how many people don't realise that they need to be able to keep their dogs focus & work just running. It is basically an attention/focus exercise teaching her to follow my hand & body language. I will start to introduce pre-cue hand signals & voice commands as we go along but for now it is just run with me & have fun. It will also teach her to turn tightly around uprights & we will be able to use it for distance/sending exercises. I am pretty pleased with her for a first attempt. Shine Agility Foundation Link Resized to 250K: Resized Trim had to have a go as well, I still do things like this with Trim, even though she has been trialling for 18 months now: Trim Agility Foundation Link Resized to 500K: If the videos take too long to download, let me know & I will resize them. Will do something else tomorrow.

Janba, I agree with the others, how it reacts to the rag would have very little relevance to a working style. Cute pup though! Are you getting this pup for stockwork? If so, I would be more interested in getting videos of the parents working. Do you know each of their strengths & weaknesses on stock? I think most people with working dogs agree that so long as the parents work nicely & were bred to compliment each other's faults & weaknesses, it won't really matter which pup you choose. It's true that some make take more after the dam than the sire or vice versa, but I don't think there is any way of knowing this till they start training. I think the thing is that as long as you can live/are willing to train through the biggest weakness in each of the parents, the pup should be just fine.

Interesting question. I think it depends on the complexity of the behaviour, the method and how well it is used & the dog. I also think some behaviours seem more natural to individuals, even with in the same breed. eg, Shine uses her paws a lot, so getting her to do a behaviour with her paws is much quicker than Zeus who doesn't use his paws a lot...but Zeus is very sensitive to my body language, so getting to move around me in a certain way is easier than Shine who has no sense of personal space. Likewise Trim is a very natural retriever, so getting her to pick up something & put it somewhere is much easier than Noah who I had to teach to chase a ball. I hope that makes sense. I am always doing these experiments with my 4 BC's. They all learn slightly differently. It is interesting for me that my least biddable dog is generally the one that learns the behaviour the quickest, LOL...then I have to actually get him to want to do it. He is usually around 3-4 repetitions. My goal atm is to be smart enough to work out the method & motivation for each dog well enough so that they are learning the same thing with the same amount of repetitions.

Well Done! You have every right to brag for both of them. Isn't it amazing how one day it just clicks? When I started agility with Noah for teh first 4 weeks he wasn't that interested (probably b/c I didn't know what I was doing back then) so I decided it wasn't his thing & just left it. Then I decided to give him another go 6 weeks later & he was feral to do it, LOL.

This brought a smile to my face & a tear to my eye. I'm glad I don't have start line issues, but you just have to LOVE the Border Collie. The eternal optimist!

Another good thread Leo puppy! My dog was trained beyond Novice level, when I entered Novice. I waited until I knew we were capable of succeeding before I entered games. I go into agility trials these days with the attitude that I am testing my training. I know I will not win every time, and I hoping for/expecting about a 70% qualifying rate. It is not realistic with a fast dog where a 10th of a second out in my timing will make a difference between Q & non Q, to expect to win/qualify every time. I don't expect this to change throughout our trialling career. So I go in, knowing it is possible & hoping it will happen, but am not devastated if it doesn't. For me there are positives to not succeeding, it means I have identified a hole in our training & have something new to work on. Some of my most successful runs are non-qualifying runs and some of my ugliest runs are qualifying ones. Guess which ones feel the best? If Now if I see a challenge on course that I have trained for, I go for it, rather than playing it safe. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If it works I am over the moon, if it doesn't (and often even if it does), I need more training. I am always looking for places that I can test whatever we are currently working on. I am more than happy to forego a qualifier to fix something that wasn't executed correctly. It is more important for me to maintain criteria than it is to win. Saying that, I will never go in expecting nothing. I always expect something & believe it is possible.

I agree with you Leopuppy, I don't think dogs trained too young will necessarily burn out & many don't. So long as training is kept fun and you are not asking for things the dog is not ready for there is no reason why burn out should happen. ...but...I think... there is nothing to lose by waiting to start training & a lot to gain different dogs mature at different times & will be ready to train at different times a dog will tell you when they are ready for training in a number of ways many people are not capable of recognising this in an individual dog there is a temptation to set goals based on age, rather than maturity there is a reason that physical & mental maturity often happen around the same time there is a temptation to set goals based on what your last dogs did, rather than what your current dog is ready for people don't always recognise signs of stress, eg sniffing as a sign their dog is not ready and is being asked for too much people settle for good performance, rather than wait for excellent performance before moving on people do not recognise the potential for difference in motivation & motivators between different breeds or breeding dogs learn differently, in different ways & at different speeds it is easy to be influenced by a training partner/s & cut corners in order to progress at the same level it is easy to get caught up in the thrill & addiction of competition & move to the next level before you are ready there is far to much emphasis placed on being the first or the youngest dog to achieve goals it is extremely easy to get frustrated if your dog is not meeting your expectations & very hard to hide this from your dog people don't realise that "life" training is far more important than competition & will help competition enormously there is a tendancy to treat your 3rd or 4th dog as a commodity rather than a companion dogs need a break every now & then. We don't work 52 weeks of the year & neither should they have to dogs will learn A LOT quicker when they are ready to learn than if they are being pushed too early there is a tendancy to handle a young like like you would an older one, forgetting that they do not yet have the experience it is easy to overdo specific things with a young dog, simply b/c those things were an issue with your last dog I am sure there is more these are just some ideas off the top of my head. I am happy for people to disagree, this is just my opinion. Vickie

Sorry I don't agree. She has chosen not to make it personal, in fact she has made it very "public" on a number of lists where she has repeatedly asked for advice & then and ignored it when it was given. If she was not interested in feedback for all the "problems" she has with the pup, then I doubt she would post so much in so many places...what would be the point if you don't care what people think? The thing that drives me crazy is that most of the clips I have seen, the pup looks great, very eager & has a large repertoire of tricks. I am not questioning methods, just the unrealistic expectations & the bad attitude that has been constantly expressed from day 1. I have every right to be upset about the way she represents my breed, I have every right to be public about the fact that her expectations are unreasonable and every right to let others reading it know that putting this much pressure on a puppy is not appropriate.

Border Collies mature differently and "take" to things at different stages/ages. My 4 have were all ready to start training at different ages. They are different dogs and deserve to be treated as such. Many sheepdog trainers don't even think of training their dogs till they are between 12-24 months of age as they don't believe they have the maturity for it. Shine is 9 months & has only recently indicated to me that she is ready to start training. It has never occurred to me to write her off as unsuitable for anything because she is not. She is just a baby. I have enjoyed bonding with her, playing with her & building our relationship. Now that she is ready for training, things are progressing very quickly, mostly because she trusts me & we have a great relationship. I am in no hurry, Trim didn't start agility trialling till she was nearly 2 & neither will Shine. It is amazing how much quicker they learn when they are ready. What you are doing with Tia on sheep at the moment is not training & I'm not sure how you can compare it to any other form of training. I don't think you are in a position to judge whether she is good at it yet either. You are just letting her do what many puppies would do if placed in that situation and it is very different to trying to teach specific behaviours. Sorry if I sound crabby, but I am. You have received a lot of advice from a lot of very knowledgeable people, telling you to slow down with this puppy. One minute you seem happy with her & show us all the tricks she has learnt and then in the next breath, say that she is not progressing quick enough. Honestly, I can never work out whether you really like her or not. I just find it very upsetting.

Damn, I just wrote a big reply & lost it. Will try again. Where is she up to in her training? Is she generally responsive to you handling? How is your timing? Do you pre-cue turns? One exercise which should help is to set up a circle of about 6 jumps with a tunnel as part of the circle, obstacle 4. Start clockwise on jump 1, lead out, to 2. Call her over jumps 1 & 2, & front cross after 2. As soon as she chooses to make that turn, give her a big reward! Then do the exercise again & let her do a jump antoclockwise after the cross, then 2 etc, but always giving BIG reward after the last jump . Do this a few times. Next try it without as big a leadout. If at any time she blows you off & takes the tunnel, ignore her & keep running the other way, kind of pretending to run the course without her. Once you have success a few times, let her have the tunnel & then go back to the first exercise. The next step in proofing is to make a U rather than a circle, so she can see the tunnel from her starting position. And follow the above steps. I have used this exercise a few times with students dogs & it is amazing how quickly the pick it up & learn to pay attention. Hope this makes sense Vickie

Well Done Helen! What a great suprise from your friend. Something to treasure.

I think Sqeak has a good point, it is often one of the first obstacles taught. There are many trainers now who are teaching the tunnel last, purely so they don't produce "tunnel sucks". I think it also has a lot to do with the speed factor, it is one of the few obstacles that we do not ask "a behaviour" on. All we ask is that they go fast & fast is fun. It is very easy for the dog & there is little room for confusion about what is required & it is not something we tend to correct on. We also often use the tunnel to teach send to our dogs...so they learn it is something they can do by themselves...again, b/c it is easy.

I think it is a Masters Standard run. The clip is from 2005, so am not really sure, but they are certainly running in Masters now. I have seen them run other courses where they did not do so well. It's funny how the more times you watch a clip the more things you notice. I can see lots of things in this clip that I like & aspire to & a couple of things that I don't like or aspire to. The more I watch it, the more I see. It might be fun to put up clips every now & then & discuss them. It's a good learning process & makes for a healthy, constructive discussion. I love Ronda's contact method. It is certainly working for us. Next we will have to show our own videos .

Nice job, I really like the music & it's cool to see everyone's beautiful dogs all at once.

Yes, looks like it in this video, but not in some of the others that I watched of this dog, where she runs on by. It may be that she was just reinforcing in the above run. I think there are faster contacts around, but I just liked this run as I thought the dog was very efficient & obviously knows his job...and the weave entry is to die for.

I just watched this video & wanted to share it. It's certainly a run to aspire to. The contacts are beautiful and that send to the weaves is amazing! What a dog! What a trainer! http://agilityvideoservice.com/play_video....1-06-kip-std.rm

Thanks WorkNBC's, we're in a situation now where we can do real work or close to it as much as we can get there right now. I'd like to steadily increase her numbers before we go back to a few, there are lots of things we still have to experience & learn and I think they are things better done on many. The other thing that is cool is that rather than going out specifically to train something, we are having to deal with things as they happen. It's a much nicer way for both of us to learn, right or wrong action needs to be taken and there is no time for indecision. I was told this a long time ago by a very good handler, I listened to the words, but honestly I am only just getting it now . A big part of it being easier for me is also not being a student who is watched by an instructor. It sounds stupid, but I have always been self conscious like this . Success is measured by whether the job gets done, much easier than having someone stand there & watch you all the time.

Good for you. We will expect a full report :D You are so lucky to have that opportunity. Unfortunately unless you know someone it is hard for many of us to do.

Yep, the same with my lot. My dominant dog is usually on the bottom, pretty quiet. Actually that video could be my dogs in the way they are interacting, LOL, except I have an extra one who may just end up being the dominant dog at some point.

Thanks Mooper . You should have done it. I learned so much about sheep yesterday, not just about working my dog, but about watching sheep & how they behave. I started to really be able to predict their movements...not as good as Trim :rolleyes: but better than I have before. Next time you get the offer, you should do it. It'll only help with your next dog & it's just a great experience.

She was very steady from the start. Our first job was to drive a mob down a lane way & into a paddock. She tends to be naturally very steady when she is behind sheep, so it was a good job to settle her. The next job of gathering she got a little full on, she has never seen that many sheep before & hasn't really worked with other dogs like that. As soon as we started fetching she settled again. Once we got into the yard stuff, she took a few minutes to settle again...but she did. I think what we did last week helped. She really learned last week not to overwork. I think it is pretty common in a young dog to overdo it when faced with new situations. Last week she started out overflanking a bit & racing to get to each side. It only took a few minutes for her to realise that once she settled and backed off, so would the sheep and she could do small arcs behind to keep them in the right direction. It was great to see her slide into this very quickly this week, even though there were more sheep, as it means she learnt from it last week. The sheep do not come to people like sheep she has worked before, so she is really having to move them, rather than just staying behind them. The other thing was that the sheep were coming from different paddocks & some were new, so they were not moving the same as a group of sheep from one flock. It is nice to have goals & see consistent improvement.