Vickie

I know LP kicked us out but since the thread is dying anyway...I'm going to answer You should do in a trial whatever works in training (within the rules)...otherwise you are just adding to the differences between the 2. As far as I am aware the rules are: Once YOU cross the start line, you may not return to your dog Once the DOG crosses the startline, the clock starts & she is in play I always remove Trim's lead as we enter the ring, same as I do in training. I set her up without the lead, take my position & release her. My honest opinion is that whilever you let a dog break the startline in a trial & continue the course you will never have a reliable startline in a trial. If you want it...(maybe after the Nationals)...you will have to be prepared to blow a few runs to get it.

I would take him back to 3 poles until you are getting the drive/motivation/distance/accuracy/independence you want you want & then move to 5. I did most of my initial weave training on 3, then moved to 5 when I was happy & then straight to 12. Every now & then if I am finetuning something now I will slightly offset just to help out. There are lots of different methods that people swear by...I guess it is about picking one & doing the hard yards (not really...2-3 times a day for a week should make a dramatic improvement) to follow it through. BTW. I think you are really mean to throw us out of the other thread I think I was finally getting Ness to stop making excuses & just do it. Now I'll have to start all over again

LOL, where is the buzzer for wrong answer Or you could train every day at home, 3 times a day, using guides or offset poles to be able to run past her whenever you want or need to so that next time you go to a trial you don't even have to think about it, b/c you know it is no longer an issue for you or her. Sounds good, I hope you try it on Sunday. It will just be another thing you don't have to worry about when you have fixed it. Sorry everyone I know this might seem off topic...but really it is part of motivation. When we go into the ring with "issues" we are stressed & so is the dog and that can only decrease motivation. Masters courses are hard enough without having the stress of babysitting things you haven't fixed in training.

So now...the big question is...not how you dealt with them at the time ...but what are you going to do to fix both these issues so they don't happen again next time you are on course??? How are you going to make sure that she doesn't need you to keep her in or help her get in?

This is a pretty big question really. As a one off, I would do exactly what you did. But I would analyse the problem if it reoccurred. If a dog is popping out in the middle of weavers, there is an issue & I would be concerned about it. There are a few possible issues with weavers: not making entries, hitting the 1st gap but not the 2nd, popping out in the middle, pulling out on the last 2. All are different issues for different reasons & would require something different to fix them. JMO.

I'm often in 2 minds about this. In theory, the dog should always be rewarded, whether every time or on a variable schedule. But...I also know that the 3 most motivated dogs I know work for no external/tangible reward. I think the reason for this is the consistency of their trainers & the relationship they have built with their dogs and to a big extent the breeding of the dog. It goes back to what I was trying to say earlier. If every dog started with a score of 100 for motivation & gained a point every time we rewarded & lost one every time we confused them, I think most dogs scores would reduce over time. The 3 dogs mentioned above belong to handlers who very rarely confuse their dogs...they have simple rules & are amazingly consistent about what receives praise & what doesn't. It is not something that most of are able to do, but I think it certainly deserves some investigation. I think it is also different when you are doing activities that the dog finds more rewarding than anything you can offer. Trim is completely & utterly tennis ball obsessed, but when she is on sheep I doubt she would even glance at a ball. I know I have said this before, but I was told at a sheep clinic by a very experienced trainer "QUIT praising that dog! You are irritating the hell out of her!" LOL, I was taken aback, but I now understand what he was getting at. My praise was an interruption of her work, it was like she was focussed, then I said something meaningless, she rolled her eyes at me..."can you just shut up, I'm trying to work here". I see a little bit of that with her agility as well. Sometimes it is appropriate to stop & reward & sometimes it is not & would be more of an irritation than a reward.

Yes I see that all the time in training too and I try my best not to do it.... Vickie, what do you do when the dog makes a mistake - do you tend to just say "oh no" and go back to the start nice and peppy or what?? You are missing my point. In the example I gave, the dog did NOT make a mistake. The dog followed the handlers body language which sent him left...even though the handler thought in their mind they were sending him right. This is extremely common and it usually takes someone observing to point out to the handler that the dog was doing exactly what their body language requested. In general terms, if I send my dog the wrong way, I will always praise her for doing what I ask. It is very rare for her to blow me off, mostly my timing was off, my body language was wrong or I am asking something I haven't yet taught/proofed properly. I try to continue when I get an off course, I don't want to give any negative reaction to her driving out fast ahead of me...I was late & it is my responsibility. The last thing I want is a cautious dog who is unwilling to move ahead in case it's the wrong way. Saying that, she also needs to take some responsibility to do what I have taught. At our last seminar, we did some work on waiting them out & getting it right, then rewarding. It is proving very effective in training and lets the dog take some responsibility for working it out in a positive manner. Although the above is all agility related, I think it applies to most interaction/training we have with our dogs. eg. We are in the middle of training & someone comes over to chat or the phone rings...do we attend to our dogs, complete the behaviour & reward or do we get distracted? Is it OK sometimes for our dogs to jump on us but not other times? How do they know the difference? We are walking along & they fall into a perfect heeling pattern, do we notice, stop & reward? or not notice b/c we didn't ask for it? The list is endless, I think dogs are simple creatures & we are complex. We communicate so much to them without realising it & it is often not the right communication & I think we are often imacting their motivation without even realising it.

Good point Jeff - but I don't see myself as reliant on toys nor reliant on varying them. Leo works just as well for the 'kong on rope' that he gets every day in the park as he does for some of his toys - but he definately has more 'drive' to work with the toys in the bag (and yep, even if it is the Kong in there *g*!). He also doesn't know what i'm going to pull out of the bag be it toys or food (obviously I can't pull myself out of there :rolleyes: ).... so I don't see myself as reliant on multiple toys, but I feel that if I stuck to one toy, it would eventually decrease the value of that one toy Sounds like his motivation is about the bag or more likely the routine that you have with the bag rather than any specific reward. My guys are very much like this. Although I don't use the same rewards, I always start with "are you ready?" That gets them excited & they know a game is about to happen, then at the end we have another routine. They like the routine & they know what to expect, it doesn't matter what the reward is, it's about the game. I always start the same way & the praise is always genuine. Yesterday I did some training with Shine & the reward was playing with a piece of fluff from a cushion ...she thought it was the best game ever, her motivation was high & all for a tiny piece of white fluff :rolleyes: I think you have to be an extremely good trainer to provide 100% consistency in what you ask & how you reward...so I try to provide as much consistency/routine as I can in my rewards to make up for what I may lack in other areas ;) Honestly I think motivation is very much a 2 part equation. One is the rewards/value/timing etc but the Other is consistency. Think about how often the average (even good) trainer actually decreases motivation accidently via bad timing or poor body language or ambiguous signals, I think this can often have a greater effect on motivation than what we are using to increase it. I see it all the time in agility training. The dog goes the wrong way & the handler says "ohhhh " slumped shoulders & plods back to try again. Meanwhile the poor dog is clueless about what he did to deserve that. Then 15 minutes later, the handler uses exactly the same body language to send the dog that way & suddenly the dog is showered with praise & treats. How can this kind of confusion not demotivate a dog? and can we undo this with a special ball or treat? We all do it...in fact we have to work extremely hard & smart not to do it. For now, I am more focussed on this aspect than the type of toy I am using b/c I think it is more important.

Good thread...I must confess I don't really have a uniform plan/routine for motivators but I always reward my dogs. I think I use my relationship with them a lot. I make it fun & they believe me. I use everything from my lead, a tug, a ball, it kind of depends where I am & what I have. I do use food to teach new behaviours sometimes. If I wasn't getting the enthusiasm out of my own dogs that I wanted then I would obviously do something about it. ETA...I know some people won't agree with this...but I think motivators do & should depend to an extent on the breed that you are training and I am fully aware that my routine would need to be different if I had a different breed or breeding.

The reason is that the people that I am training with advise it when a dog is first starting as mine is. Like everything I guess, there are different opinions...many experts do it & many don't. The line is light & doesn't seem to be bothering her, she probably doesn't need it, but I think it is hard to predict how a pup will respond first time & moving to a bigger area, so it is just a safety measure & I don't want her learnign that she can blow me off. I am happy with her recall both on & off stock so far & she will learn to stop on stock as we go along. Thank you Would love to see some video of your pups if you have any.

Now I'm not coming from sheep experience here, but I don't see that the two have to be mutually exclusive. If you set it up so that they have only limited options for action, one of which is the right one, and none of the others being a problem, then you could do both. I just don't see it as that simple, but I am probably seeing it wrong . An example: A young dog is working too close to sheep... -Are they just a young excited dog? -Do they need to feel the effect of that & experience the consequences so that they know to back off a bit? -Are they going to feel good when they learn that releasing pressure is much easier to hang on or sheep or are they going to enjoy creating movement & pushing so much that unless you interfere it's going to be a problem? -Do they need to be pushed off straight away so as not to get comfortable with it or should you give them a chance to see what will happen? -If they are naturally going to be wide & you push them off in the beginning, are they going to be too far off as they mature? -Are they too close b/c of the way the handler is managing the sheep -Are they too close b/c they need to be to move those particular sheep? I could list as many options for gripping and probably a whole host of other things. My gut feeling is that all of the above depends on time, the dog, the sheep & the experience of the handler. now you know what I mean when I say I overthink Problem is I have heard the responses to all those questions & they are different from different people...depending on their beliefs & the current situation. I just don't have the experience yet to guage the situation so until then I just ned to keep asking questions.

Please don't get me wrong...I am certainly NOT unhappy with her. I think she did an awesome job & I think she is going to be a fantastic pup for me on sheep. I overthink stuff...LOL...it's what I do. I have a thousand questions in my mind...I just want to do the best I can for her. I am always torn between the "let them work it out" and the "don't let them practice what you don't want" arguments. I never know when is the right time to switch from one to the other... Thank you for videoing Sidoney & I am so glad you came & that you & Xia & Ellie & Pickle had such great experiences.

She's 10 months Julie That's a point...I can't wait for it to get cooler. Thank you Tony, is this what you would always do or would it depend on the pup? I just feel like she is still such a puppy in lots of ways (which she is at 10mths)and I still have so much to learn & experience. I don't want to mistake her sensibleness for maturity. She is also very leggy & has a lot of filling out to do. She has a lovely solid temperament so I'm not worried about that but I know that lots of people give their pups a taste & then wait till they grow up a bit before asking anything of them. I guess if I just spend some time letting her work things out & not commanding her, I am not putting pressure on her. I just wish I was a better handler for her, I keep feeling that I should be more competent with Trim before I start again, but they are such different dogs so it's hard. Thank you all, it's nice to be able to bounce things off you guys.

I wouldn't do it either. The dog in the clip has obviously been taught using a nose touch. I think it's dangerous & I have seen somersaults as a result & heard of back injuries...why would you want your dog shifting weight forward when they should be shifting weight back? Everything I have ever heard about 4 on the floor is that it often disintegrates rapidly as there is not a precise position for the dog. They start at the bottom of the obstacle, then one metre away & then 2 etc. I'm sure you could train this properly to make it exact, but I still think it's a dangerous behaviour, especially if you are asking for speed.

We ventured into a bigger yard today...she was a little more full on than in the round yard but still pretty sensible for a young dog. We had a rogue sheep in there, who kept separating from the others. She didn't always notice that he'd gone straight away, but certainly did her best to bring him back when she saw him. She is very kind to her sheep & doesn't seem to have any malice...and was also very comfortable face to face. I think she did very well & she has nice natural balance. I said nothing to her other than good girl & tried to use my body to help her. She was a little more pushy than I thought she'd be but Since this is only her 2nd day balancing, I think she'll work out her pace soon enough. Some video's if anyone wants to have a look. I am thinking now I will leave her for a couple of months & let her mature a little more, both physically & mentally. Thoughts? Would you do this, or would you keep going?

I know it's a big ask, but I am into "diaries" atm. If you are thinking of doing one, I would really love to see it & I'm sure others would as well. I have never seen a fast dog skid or fall at the end b/c they were going too fast with a 2on 2 off. I ran Trim's Mum for a while. She has the fastest contacts I have ever seen. She was taught to shift her body weight on descent & certainly never looked like sliding or falling. The only issues I have seen a number of times are with fast dogs taught to nose touch, b/c they are actually shifting body weight forward not back & I've seen a few somersaults.

I know it's a big ask Cosmolo, but I don't suppose you would consider keeping a training diary of the steps you go through & the progress you make to share with us? I'd be very interested in the results & how you end up going about it all. No harm in asking

Definitely, as much as I can, both in agility & in herding. I try to learn as much as I can from as many people as I can & then take bits & pieces from each of them to come up with my training plans & goals. Having one on one or smaller classes gives me the flexibility to change my lesson plan mid way through if I need to. The most valuable lessons I have learned in dog training so far have been in a one on one situation & have not always followed a set structure. I also like to think outside the square and am currently meeting with someone for agility who has a lot less experience in agility than I do, but who is an excellent dog trainer. Our plan is to leverage off each other & share our strengths & knowledge in a mutual gain situation. I also have no problem going to someone for lessons who is at a similar level to what I am. There are always things they might do better or tips that they have learnt & can pass on.

Sorry, I missed this. My point was that I believe a trained running contact is different to a contact where the dog runs over the contact and it's natural stride hits the contact. This is very common with smaller dogs & some slower larger dogs. Lots of these people say they have a running contact & I guess the truth is, they do...they just didn't train it. I have nothing against them, I think they're lucky. I think it is rare for a fast normal/long striding dog to hit the contact 100% of the time without training. It is only in the past 2-3 years that top agility trainers around the world have perfected their methods of teaching running contacts to the point where they are considered 100% for each dogs they train (and some would still argue that this is true). I have never trained a running contact & probably won't. Many people teach a 2on 2off & then when they need it (eg National Final), they release the dog early...giving a very similar result to a running contact. That's my plan. Maybe when there is an international formula for running contacts that really works & has been around for a long time that is achievable for the average trainer (me), I will give it a go. I think an average trainer can easily achieve 2on 2off as there is a very clear criteria for the dog but I think you need to be an outstanding trainer to isolate & reward the behaviours required for RC's. If I were to teach RC, I would do some research. Some of the methods used are: putting a hoop over both contact zones so the dog has to duck slightly on either end working out the striding required for the dog to hit the contact zone & using stride regulators (poles/humps positioned across the contact to ensure that the dogs feet touch in certain places) Both these methods require lots & lots of repetition with the goal that the dog is learning muscle memory, they are also very exact & dogs are only rewarded for exact placement of their feet. Honestly I don't think many people in Aust. are at that level of training in agility yet. A friend of mine just returned from the US where she did some classes & went to some trials. Her first words to me when she got back "we don't train anything properly!...our best dogs here would be considered average (if that) over there" Another method I have been reading about is Silvia Trkman's. She is famous for her running contacts & does get that accuracy with phenomenal speed. Her method, as I understand it sounds quite simple but again it is lots of repetition & from reading her training theories I think is quite dependent on the amazing foundation & relationship she builds with her dogs as well as the 100% time & effort she puts into her dogs. It is basically reward a run & prevent any effort to "jump" on the contact. So again it is very dependent on observing & analysing each & every stride. Here is her website if you are interested, she has a lot of clips on there, including RC http://www.silvia.trkman.net/ ETA. You know at the end of the day, I guess it depends on your goals. Not everyone has the time or aspiration to put the rest of their world on hold to achieve the ultimate, I know I don't. I like to aim for the best I can be but realise I am never going to be able to achieve the same level as someone who does agility full time, without children and no other interests in life.

In this case I would not switch to food as that would be avoiding an issue rather than fixing it and anything that is avoided always comes back to haunt us :D . I have actually been working on something similar today. It's basically "do what I want to get what you want" Dog A (my toy obsessed pup) circles me everytime I pick up a toy. Dog B (not my dog) jumps around like a maniac, barking & backing away everytime I pick up a toy. Neither behaviour is acceptable nor helpful in training, so we are fixing them. Dog A has reasonable self control & understands the process of learning, she also understand to come to my hand when I ask her. I am luring (with the toy) into a sit position beside me & rewarding by throwing the toy. She has already learnt that I will not throw it until she is in exactly the position I want & stable. She is now moving imediately into position when I ask, but her default behaviour before I ask is still to circle. Tomorrow I will fade the luring & look for her to offer the position. Dog B has very little self control & is highly stimulated by just about anything. We just started working on it today, I have attached a longline to her so as not to allow her behaviour of backing away. She knows how to sit but it has been a case of waiting her out today. After 4 x 5min sessions, she is now sitting beside me (long line still attached but not being used) & looking at me to throw the ball. We will work on it again tomorrow & I after I get the success I got today I will start revving them both up a bit more & proofing the position. Not sure if this helps, but I would look at (as above) asking for a settled behaviour before any interaction with the toy.

I would not change to instead of...but I think it is good to have both options of reward in your toolbox. In general I was taught (and agree) that the best way to reward with food is to use whatever food it takes for the dog to find it rewarding...and if that means a whole leg of ham initially then then so be it. It is worth experimenting a bit to work it out I think. My dogs are also more motivated by toys but I have taught all of them to take food as sometimes it is a more convenient option to reward a particular behaviour. I actually did the opposite of what you would think to teach them to see the food as a reward. I used a toy to reward the behaviour until doing the behaviour itself became rewarding & then rewarded that behaviour with food. For us, the reward is mostly about the interaction with me, so when I tug, I have fun, make sure my timing is as good as it can be & say certain words in a certain voice. If you pick a behaviour initially that your dog knows, in an environment it is comfortable in & use all the body language & verbals that you general use in a reward, most dogs will make the association & accept the food reward in a similar manner to a toy. My dogs can & will now go crazy for the kibble that they eat every day...not because they LOVE kibble so much, but because of the fact that it is given as a reward for soemthing they enjoy. Reminds me of a funny story the presenter told at the last seminar I went to. Her dogs prefer toys to food, but she teaches them to take food successfully as a reward....or so she thought LOL. One of her dogs has a habit of taking the food throughout a sequence as rewards & storing it in her cheeks. It is only when the dog thinks that the training is over that she will actually eat it.

In all honesty I think that the majority of people with "running" contacts have "untrained" contacts with a dog whose natural stride takes them over the contact zone. True running contacts take time to teach & involve muscle memory & stride regulation. -I think the biggest issue people (including myself) have with contacts is the dog slowing down on descent before getting into position and I believe it is due to lack of true understanding about the position as well as placement of the reward. We have worked on this a lot & have improved heaps but still have some work to do. -Another hard one is getting the position independent of handler position & again we are working through this with placement of reward. -Another big one is good contacts at training but not in trials. I blew a number of places at trials for a while so we could hold our contacts for seconds...it was worth it. A missed contact in a trial would elicit exactly the same response from me as a missed one in training would. ETA, I think the hardest part is the transition from foundation training to contacts as part of a course. For us there is a consequence of missing a contact behaviour or breaking a start. I get my dog to stop & I go back & release when & where I am ready while she holds her position. I don't correct anything else on course but will -wait her out -make the exercise easier -Fix my crappy handling (most common_ -then reward for correct performance -then I make it harder, so I am sure that we have fixed it.

Definitely beneficial. I have done a walk at Blackman Oval a few times with the girls, it's a good one for this type of thing. I could see the difference between my 2 & their ability to negotiate initially but can also see the gap closing. I also like the idea of hill conditioning, we often do a bit of that when we go to the farm & it's good for fitness & strengthening. I remember 2 ponies I had when I was younger. Once had been bred on a farm that was very hilly, the other had not...the difference between them was incredible both to watch & to ride.

I know, I am really excited at how calm she is. She was very calm at 14 weeks, nothing silly, just went around them like she had done it 100 times before & fetched to me in a very large paddock with not so quiet sheep. I have been hoping all this time that it was a good sign of things to come & it seems so far that it is. She didn't see sheep (other than that 1st time till around 9mths). Both her parents are calm, sensible & confident so it's not really luck. I have no interest in ANKC herding, but would like to have a go at 3 sheep when we're ready.

That's pretty much her first time. She did escape into a paddock at 14 weeks for a few minutes and she has been in a yard on a line a couple of times just getting comfortable moving amongst them & recalling but this is the first time I have let her go or asked anything of her. She's 10 months. Here's another one: