Vickie

Thinking about this more. The reason these traits are important is b/c these would be traits necessary for a useful dog working stock well. Since the BC (for me) is categorised first and foremost as a stockdog, I guess in a working sense, yes I would consider a dog moderate or low in the above may not be a good example of the breed (again for me).

I think I can guess the answer but you know what they say about assuming! Vickie do you believe that high drive is the only way a BC should be (i.e. that you believe moderate is incorrect)? I can't answer this as high drive is such a relative term depending on who is using it. Most of the traits I listed earlier are what I believe a BC should have in terms of drive. Obviously I have a lot of other things I consider important in a BC...you already know what they are .

I don't get this bit???? I think what she is saying that a dog that has been highly trained to respond to rewards is not necessarily a high drive dog. It is one who has a good trainer able to get the most out of their dog. I agree. All dogs can be trained but some are more naturally high drive than others. ETA: we posted at the same time, I thought wrong I also don't think there is any shame in having a dog who is not high drive. Not everyone wants one or needs one & many would struggle with one. I think it's also breed specific to a degree. I want a high drive dog because I like them & I want to compete at teh top level so my breed of choice is one that is renowned for their high drives. It is part of their breed characteristic, it is who they are. If I didn't want this, I would probably have another breed. It doesn't mean I wouldn't train the dog effectively, it just means I wouldn't need/want drive for it to fit into my lifestyle.

I think there are some other variables here. Differences between behaviours that are instinctual & those that are articial. Behaviours that are self rewarding & externally rewarding Biddability Heart Bounceback Endurance I don't want a dog that is constantly over the top high drive every minute of the day. I want a dog that is giving 100% when I ask for it but not so much that they are blowing me off to satisfy their drive. I want a dog who when exhausted will still be trying to give 100% mentally even if their body is slowing down. I want a dog who after a bad experience will bounce right back like it never happened. I want a dog who will work just as hard for me if I forget to take a toy or food to training. I expect all of the above from my dogs. I want a lot but it's not impossible with a good consistent relationship, sincerity & decent breeding/genetics.

No I am no expert. I am happy with what I get from my dogs & have attended many performance seminars & see the same thing over & over again. I don't know the answer to yoiur questions, I think it would be very hard for anyone to assess without seeing you & your dog/s. Have you been to see a trainer? I spent the last 2 days at a seminar. There were a few dogs there who were giving very mediocre performances. In all cases, the issue was addressed by changing the way the handler treated the dogs. Each dog went from mediocre at the start to the point where they basically gave up/shut down/threw a tantrum. By half way through the 2nd day, when they realised their tantrum wasn't working, they started to work. By the end of the 2nd day, they were all working, I mean really working. It was quite amazing to watch & certainly showed the value in consistency AND in treating a dog like a dog.

Well I don't know you, so I can't say... but I would say that if someone/anyone is saying that their dog doesn't respond in any drive, that the problem is more likely to be related to their relationship/interactions with them than any genetics the dogs has. Maybe you are an exception? I don't know b/c I don't know you. The same techniques may have worked for another dog but is it possible that the other dogs had different drives & that your relationship/interactions with him are different? I have 4 dogs, all have different drives & levels of drives, but I am quite confident that I can get each of the 4 working for me enthusiastically whether I use food, toys or praise.

What on earth are you talking about?

I would say that most of us need to have a much better understanding of our dogs than we really do to be able to say that our dogs do or don't have inherent drive for something. The human factor/interference IMO is just too great. I think we as owners are often far too inconsistent or misguided to really be accurate in assessing our dogs natural drives. Some people stifle drive Some people encourage drive Some people tap into the wrong drive Some people fail to recognise the right drive Problem is that not everyone is aware of the above & many make categoric statements that are clearly unfounded when someone really knowledgeable actually observes them with their dogs.

The Novice Disclaimer was about me, not you. I just meant that I have limited experience with herding and am no expert...so am just stating things I have experienced & been told. As a novice handler, one of the mistakes I have made is not moving enough myself & have often been told to keep moving to give my dogs somewhere to bring the sheep. I always found this hard in a very small area, it is much easier in a bigger area where I can pick points to walk to. The other advice that has been useful is to walk through the sheep every now & then, so as to give the dog something to do to find the new balance point. Also walking around obstacles/trees, through gates etc to make the dogs have to think about where they need to be.

Novice disclaimer... 3 times is not much, I would keep going but just be careful that he is not in a situation where the sheep are taking him on. I don't think a bit of a break does them any harm either. I called it quits with 2 dogs, neither had much instinct, one had little interest & the other was too hard on the sheep. I don't regret it & know it was the right thing to do, for the dogs & the sheep. Sounds like he has instinct but is a bit unsure & there's not enough going on to keep him stimulated. Training sheep can be very intimidating for young dogs, he sounds like he needs some wins. Is there anywhere you can take him where the sheep are not quite so used to dogs & where you can find some jobs for him to do? What size area is he in currently? He may free up a bit in a larger area? I always find my dogs do their best work when we have a job to do, even something as simple as moving sheep from a yard to a paddock & back again, mostly becasue it gives me soemthing to do (rather than standing in the middle looking like an idiot )

I can highly recommend these guys: http://www.k9physio.com/ I have been & sent a number of my friends, all with great results. They are also in a number of areas of Sydney. I hope she improves, it must be so hard being so far away.

I know...AMAZING! Imagine just being chosen for World Championships at 14...let alone winning Her are another couple of clips: Silvia Trkman & La (I love watching these 2 in action, both doing tricks & on the course), She is one awesome little dog and I think has won the last 2 years running. and Carrie Jones & Jive who came 6th...I wonder where she would have come if not for the hesitation at the tunnel?

Oh , what an awful thing to happen. I hope he has a quick recovery, poor boy.

Was just looking at the results online. A 14 year old girl from Czech Republic & her sheltie won the small height category overall. What an awesome accomplishment at such a young age!!! Here is a video of their agility run if anyone wants to see: There are a number of links to videos on this page of various runs if anyone wants to see how the best in the world do it: FCI World Championships Website

I don't know much about flyball, but there are HEAPS of toy poodles doing agility & doing it VERY well.

L&L, not sure if you're responding to me but I'm not suggesting a "softly softly" approach, nor was I commenting on what you did or it's effectiveness. What I am saying is that a behaviour that is self rewarding & obsessive is very difficult to extinguish with intermittent aversives. eg, let's say a dog is chasing flies & finds it rewarding to the point of obsession...if the dog does this and finds it self-rewarding for 8 hours a day...10 minutes of aversive is not going to fix it. Problem with people using aversives for something like this is that half the time the dog has no idea what it is even being corrected for. Hope this explains my post better.

A hard one... I'm not a fan of aversives in this situation b/c whenever you're not there he can still practice this behaviour & find it rewarding, so the ratio would not be high enough. Is he at the point where as soon as he is let outside, he runs straight to the tree? If so, this would be the first part to work on IMO. I would not pander to him by feeding him inside & would use this as an opportunity. What would happen if you left him inside & went out & put his food down so he could see you doing it. Maybe divide his food into 5-6 portions? Then let him out & if he runs past the food, ignore him & 15 minutes later remove the food. Same thing the next day & the next etc until he was hungry enough to eat outside & to go straight to the food before the tree. I had to do this once & it took 5 days, but our issues were completely solved at the end of it. I guess cutting the tree down is not an option?

Welcome to a new addiction . Scoring is basically fastest time without a fault wins. Faults: there are a number of them but basically a knocked bar is a fault, not touching a contact zone on the AFrame, DW & SS, not staying on the table for 5 seconds, a missed weave pole. Penalties also apply for obstacles out of order, unsafe performance, touching your dog, refusal of an obstacle. There is also a SCT (standard course time) for each course, any time over the SCT will incur time faults. Fairly basic explanation, but hope it helps.

I think it's an individual decision. I retired my boys from agility at 8 for a few reasons & think it was the right thing to do. They still have a play around with it in the backyard & Zeus has been to training a couple of times but after the last time I realised that he is really past it & he won't be going back. I can't even take him along to visit b/c he still wants to do it so badly. I think that I will recognise when it is time to retire Trim (a long way away) but if I don't, I sincerely hope that my friends will let me know. I see a number of dogs running right now that are overdue their retirement & it makes me sad to see them competing b/c I think they (the dogs) could have just as much enjoyment from recreational training over low jumps or a less strenuous activity. Not much help, but I wouldn't take her lack of enthusiasm on walks as a sign that she's ready for retirement. There could be so many other things going on there. From all videos I have seen of her, she looks happy & if she's fit & injury free then I say keep going but be on the lookout for slow changes & tone things down as you see fit.

I think you're right, you will have to wait & see. It's really hard to tell how much instinct dogs have until you actually try them. I've seen heaps of dogs who have all the moves off sheep, but very little on & vice versa. I'm not sure you can judge it other than on stock and dogs that look the part do not always have what it takes to excel. Trim is the most biddable dog in the world in agility, but I struggle sometimes overcoming her instinct on sheep. I think it says more about me than her but she can be a real tough little nut on sheep & I very rarely have problems getting her to do what I want in agility. But again I am pretty confident about my agility skills & it is easy for me to have a clear criteria...not so on sheep, well not yet anyway. I don't think there's anything wrong with having high standards but for me they vary from activity to activity, from dog to dog.

I'm not sure you can excel at all of these things at once...but I guess it depends on what your standards are. I think you can certainly do more than one thing at a time though & not confuse the dog...especially where herding is concerned & instinct comes into play. I always find with anything that mine is the biggest learning curve, it takes me far longer to learn & become proficient at anything than it does to train my dog. Biggest issue doing more than one thing I think is time. I only do agility & herding & in all honesty don't really give enough time to agility & not nearly enough to herding to truly excel in either. Excelling in agility I think is possible with time & dedication, herding is much harder, despite best intentions. People say that too much obedience can make introduction to sheep hard, since the dog is trained in obed to be very handler focussed which is not what you want for sheep. I have certainly seen instances of this, but am sure it can be overcome. I know nothing about showing & what is required but since there are only so many weekends & hours in the day think it would be quite a challenge to fit it all in, especially if you have a family as well. Not much help, I know, but my advice would be to pick one or two & then move to others once you are feeling like things have come together. We know the BORDER COLLIE can do it ALL! My problem is that the handler can't

Not sure how to word this... Every now & then I see/read/hear things from people about their dogs & they cling to a particular statement & I wonder is it really true? are they generalising? or are they in denial? Sometimes I think we formulate the "right" answers in our heads to questions issues commonly raised & don't really investigate whether they are true. A friend made an observation about one of my dogs a number of years ago..."No" I said vehemently. But she was right & it has made me think a little more objectively both about his behaviour as well as my denial of it. Now I often see the same behaviour in other dogs & the same denial from their owners. Examples I have seen/heard/read: My dog has no fears, it is solid as a rock. Maybe it is...or maybe your backyard does not provide the triggers that could bring some fears to the surface? My dog would not bite me unless really provoked. Maybe it wouldn't...but when it gives you a bad look for doing something & you stop & back away, do you ever consider what would happen if you continued? My dog is great with other dogs. Maybe it is...but if it met more than the same 10 dogs each week that it has grown up with, could things be different? My dog has/would never destroyed anything in the house. What if it was either unsupervised or uncrated in the house for a period of time? My dog loves training. Well why is it getting less enthusiastic each week? I am sure many of us, trainers especially see & hear lots of cases where things don't add up for them & the owners are either generalising or denying. I'm seeing quite a bit of denial in agility lately in regard to physical soundness of dogs, I think the people know there is an issue, but they just can't admit it. Some of them even come up with a surprised "oh really, do you think so?" They obviously forget having the same conversation with one of my friends the week before. ;) It would be interesting to hear some examples people have witnessed & what sort of impact they had on both the dog & the owner.

Nope, not too far fetched, I think it's a very valid point and we need to consider key words while also giving our dogs some credit for reading body language & intonation. I use "Go" in agility, but there is a very clear sequence of events that comes before the word...we walk to the start line, I remove her collar, she sits between my legs, I walk out, I make eye contact, I say Go in an even tone. Even though she releases on Go, I believe for her it is a whole sequence of events that never varies & she sees it in that context. There are others I wonder about as well...for instance "no" sounds just like "go". I use both in different circumstances but think my dogs pick up on the tone it is said in to differentiate. I also have a dog called "NOah", and have been known to say his name in frustration :D just a few times ;) . I use "come-bye" on sheep to mean go clockwise, but occasionally if I am getting frustrated & my pitch changes, I see a glimmer of confusion b/c "come" means something else. Likewise "away" can sound similar to "ahhh!" in frustration. Only a problems for Novice handlers ;) , I think...the old guys never lose their cool. I have also chosen a different word in Agility Pairs to tell my partner to Go...the last thing I want to be yelling is Go when I want my dog to stop, but on the occasion I have used it, it has made no difference. I have seen my dogs respond to a word used in general conversation ("ball" is an obvious one, as is "food") often enough to know that they are listening & very tuned in to some words meaning an action. At the end of the day I know that my body language will always overrule any verbal given, so don't stress about it too much.

I couldn't agree more. We are lucky to have an excellent Canine Physio in Sydney who I can highly recommend. Personally for anything which involved yelping, I think it is worth a visit, especially if things don't improve. The thing that I always worry about is that just like us, when dogs are injured, they usually compensate with another part of their body & that can sometimes cause chronic issues elsewhere.

I agree. In all areas in life there will be people who have funny ideas & sometimes they are based on nothing more than an old wives tale. I don't write them off, sometimes they may just deliver one crucial piece of advice that makes a huge difference to me & my dogs. The sheepdog world is full of fixed, quirky ideas, many that make no sense at all, but one weird idea is not going to stop me observing & learning from some of the best in the game. I had a similar comment made to me when I first started agility, only it was more personal. Funnily enough years, later the instructor who made it is someone I have learnt a lot from & respect greatly. I'm glad I didn't pass them off as not worthwhile, I would be less of a handler if I had.