Vickie

Was just reading another thread where a comparison was made between dogs & rats. I know absolutely nothing about rats. I know that learning theory & behaviour contains some parallels across all species but out of curiosity are rats as opportunistic as dogs? What other species are as opportunistic as dogs? I have spent a lot of time with horses & cattle & sheep. I don't see them to have the same levels (but am prepared to be wrong as I have never attempted to train them to the level I have trained a dog).

Thank you I will keep your advice in mind....so far so good You're right. There is no sense in arguing. I believe deprivation is an excellent training tool & will continue to use it, but probably never to the extremes some people choose to, unless I become a hell of a lot more competitive. You don't believe it is necessary at all. Each to his own . Hopefully we will both still be able to achieve the results we desire.

Just to qualify this...appetite can also be increased by things other than sight of the reward. ie... a sound/word used in association with the promise of a reward, a routine used in association of a reward, a request for a behaviour that has in the past always been heavily rewarded. LOL, I think I am going way off track...but was just thinking about what I wrote & realised that I actually would not expect to see from my dogs a significant difference in performance based on whether I produced a toy or not. Still believ in the theory though .

Let's say I asked my dog to run a sequence with no presentation or hint of reward. Let's say I then got a toy out & showed it to them, teased them a little with it & then repeated the sequence. Am I increasing appetite for the toy & therefore motivation to do the sequence faster? I think yes. It would not increase appetite if I had hidden the toy away for weeks, they would forget it even exists. It is the sight of the toy that increases their appetite and the delay in allowing them to have it which inspires motivation. emotional state? do you really think dogs are capable of that thought process to become sensitive about what they could have had? only if you are shaping. If I delay a reward when my dog is sitting in front of a jump/sequence, they are not offering behaviours...they are quivering in anticipation of their release word, the longer I deprive them, the more they blast off.

I was just playing with Shine & was reminded of something that can make tugging more fun for dogs. Tugging with something that comes apart. Things that work are old stuffed toys, dogs seem to love it when they actually rip the head or a leg off. Also old towels can be fun too, sicne they rip easily. I find both these are good to use with handlers who are a little too controlling when they tug as the very act of ripping allows the dog to experience some control & win easily, despite what the handler is doing.

Thank you. I think I will try to get one.

I have thought about this a lot and this is what I finally came up with: A puppy farmer for me is simply someone who repeatedly breeds cross or poor examples of a breed.

OMG This is just the best news EVER!!!! Well done Sam & boys I am so happy for you

Has anyone used one of these with fast dogs? I could do with another tunnel & the price is certainly right, but I have a feeling mine might demolish it.

You're welcome . It is so hard to describe a method of anything in so few words. It doesn't sound like it would will work for Erik, but anything that has previously worked is always food for thought. I've never had much luck with long lines either on the ball or the dog, I have used the 2 ball method, but like the above one better as it really encourages the dog to think & learn.

I did a session with a dog who wanted to run laps & play with the ball instead of returning it last week. I wish I had videoed it. LOL, I estimated it would take me 10 mins to get him bringing it to my feet & was pretty spot on with the timing . We then spent time getting him to bring it back to his owner, he needed to learn it again since he already had an established routine of not returning it to her. That took about 5 mins. I haven't heard from her since, but am hoping that she has stuck to our plan & he is still retrieving instantly. Some things we did: 1. Throw it, but not too far. 2. As soon as he picks it up, run away from him calling him. 3. Verbally mark any forward steps towards you. (He was dropping the ball at a verbal marker) 4. if not dropping the ball, this is where I would reward with something else, so they drop it 5. As soon as the ball is dropped, get the ball & repeat the process. 6. Delay the verbal marker so dog is taking more steps towards you 7. If the dogs dives on the ball as you get to it, using a stand up palms out body blocking language & a word such as stop. Try not to let the dog beat you & get the ball. If he does, run away again (step 2). 8. When the dog is consistently taking a number of steps, ie bringing it most of the way to you, then focus on throwing the ball really fast as soon as it is dropped. Aim to replae the fast throwing of the ball with your external reward if you are using one. 9. Once the dog truly understands that the faster they bring it back, the quicker you will throw it, then work on the exact placement of the ball. Some dogs respond to pointing on the ground & enthusiastic requests, others need you to go back to taking a step or 2 backwards. All of the above I have done with dogs who already had a high value for chasing a ball. I would use other methods as well if the dog did not put high enough value on the ball.

I generally have a plan & am I'm usually doing things that I have done before with other dogs, so although I am open to experimenting, things I do are generally tried & tested. Even though things usually work, I am ALWAYS thinking about way to improve it, right down to the tiniest little detail. I tend to clarify/consult with myself when things Don't work, rather than when they Do work. When I am teaching, I will spend as much time explaining why things worked as why they didn't. I train with a small group of people like minded people once a week. They are GREAT sessions & we doing a lot of talking about what worked & why & what didn't & why.

How do you train a dog to do anything without some form of deprivation? The very act of delaying a reward is deprivation, there is a heap of this in your clip. I don't know anyone who competes without some form of deprivation. I think you just need to find a level that you are happy with. My dogs may well be better agility dogs if I: locked them in a crate other than when we train only gave them food for training and only allowed them access to toys for training. It is just not something I am prepared to do and I don't want the benefits of it badly enough to do it. I feed them treats b/c I love them. They have toys in the backyard b/c they like to play & they have free run of the house. But I DO use deprivation to train them, we all do.

As your training skills increase, he may surprise you. What I see in that clip is a dog capable of a whole lot more in terms of enjoyment and ability than you seem to think he is.

:D WOW! What a phenomenal difference! You must be so proud of her...AND yourself! I love watching before & afters like this. It just shows you what dedication & determination can achieve :D

It sounds like you are happy with things as they are for now. There may be a day in the future where you decide you want to do some training with him. All the things you are doing with Bitty are making you a better trainer...you may well decide to use those skills with Bub one day. For now if you are loving training Bitty & happy with Bub the way he is, then I would leave it at that. There is no reason to feeling guilty about copping out...unless you want more from him, or yourself.

She sounds like a great trainer . Do you live near her? or anyone else you admire? It can be awesome to train with someone who handles the way you want to. Maybe she does lessons? Make sure you keep us updated with her progress

:D I can't believe a vet said all that...especially with limited information.

Fantastic shots :D and quite a diversity of styles too. He is a beautiful boy

Do you have any ideas about what causes your stress with dog training? Seems to me that maybe if you can break down the source of your stress, you can possibly reduce some of it. From an outsiders perspective, you have a very fun, high drive and intelligent dog in Kaos. You have done a good job with his training, your handling is always improving & you are increasingly successful with him in the ring. I suspect you are very hard on yourself & want more with him...right now! We all want more than what we have in terms of better performance & increased success, but sometimes it is good to stop & smell the flowers & take joy in how far we have come. You and Kaos have come so far already and both of you are continuing to improve. The (agility) world is your oyster right now.

Sounds like you are on your way to achieving it. Just know that it will take time. If you are getting her revved up (I like to use a word, like "Ready") to let her know fun will begin, you asking for achievable things, are rewarding often & remaining upbeat, she will improve with each session. Soon she will be loving it so much that she won't even notice the smells on the ground. It's good to remain positive about her mistakes. Is any dog really making a mistake on an agility course? I was chatting to someone about this today. I believe that each time you take a dog back to redo an obstacle they have failed or missed, each time you slump your shoulders, or groan etc...you are decreasing their motivation & their trust in you as a handler. If a dog makes a mistake on course, then it always means more work needs to be done either in improved handling or training. The dog should really never know they have done it wrong...b/c they haven't, we have...either in handling or training. I do believe there are a couple of exceptions to the above.

such a beautiful group of dogs you have CM. They are great shots. You are so good at the B&W stuff and I love the angles you get as well

What a beautiful shot! and even more special that it shows the character of each dog.

Problem is that if you are just going through the motions for tugging...it is hard for you to find it rewarding or fun & this will impact Kaos. The reason I sometimes suggest to people to only use a tug as a reward is that it allows the transfer of genuine emotion/arousal/adrenalin you feel to the dog. If you are just standing there trying to get him to tug, while feeling down & pressured b/c you just want your dog to tug well, you are often not much fun. If otoh, you get your dog really revved up & ask for something you know that they will do brilliantly, it is impossible for you not to feel on top of the world. When you reward with the tug for a job well done, you are happy & most importantly, you are sincere. My dogs are happy to tug whenever & wherever, but their tugging when I am over the moon with their performance is at a whole nother level. They are at their best when we are both full of adrenalin. I wish I could just summon that kind of adrenalin in myself at will...but I have never been able to do it. There is no theory behind this...just something I have always felt.

It is unlikely that she will grow out of it, unless you are able to increase her motivation for agility. It really sounds to me like you need to take some steps backwards, depending on what you want as an end performance. I don't think it really matters what she is distracted by, any distraction means she needs to want to do agility more. When I started trialling, I considered a good run to be completing or even almost completing the whole course. Now my definition of success is entirely different. I want my dogs going flat out, quivering in excitement at the start line and launching through the air to get their reward at the end. I want to be able to know that if there was a fried chicken sitting in the middle of the course, they wouldn't even notice it. I would much rather DQ on an awesome run than win on an average run. The dog's perception of the game is everything.