Vickie

I think that if ever work with a dog with real instincts, your opinions will change a bit Corvus. For many dogs, it's not a matter of "handling" non purely positive training...they thrive on it! and in lots of cases there is no other way to communicate with them once they enjoy the activity for the sake of the activity. They thrive on consequences b/c consequences are black & white. They become confident quickly, not b/c they are placed under stress, but b/c they understand the rules and end up getting rewarded a lot more often. Compare the person who is trying to be PP but who lacks experience & doesn't realise they are constantly applying pressure to their dog & shutting them down a little each time they train vs the person who plays hard & well but removes the dog from training if it chooses no to obey a command it knows. Which method is suited to the most dogs? Which is the most positive?

I think my dogs are playing games with me . We did some training this morning & they did a role reversal. Each has strengths that the other one is weaker in & weaknesses that the other one is stronger in. Today Trim felt like Shine to handle & Shine felt like Trim. nothing like keeping me on my toes. I'm always trying to bridge the gap...I got no closer to it today, they just swapped!

I've never had a lesson with Steve but have been at Pet Resorts a number of times & watched him handle his own dogs. I have found them to be very well trained & super keen to work for him. I'm not sure you can get those kind of results if you are not a good trainer.

TN, there is a lady in Bargo who gives excellent lessons, not sure which nights though. I can pm you her email if you are interested.

Lol, pretty similar right now! Although At least they seem to know that they are not to take the first obstacle. Trim has always done one little hop, but she is really pushing it right now. My daughter has released her on movement a few times & now she seems to think the rules have changed. I'm not letting Chloe run her for a while till I fix it (much to chloes disappointment). The worst thing is that b/c I lead out with my back to her, unless I see video, I don't even realize how bad it is.

Here is Miss Trim's JDO run from last weekend. She is such a good girl, it felt so awesome & one of those rare runs where everything just goes perfectly. I have this weird superstition thing that when we are filmed, we stuff up & when we are not filmed, we run clear . It's so stupid, I know. I didn't know this was being filmed & it was sent to me last night. LOL, so now I have to change my superstition to "when I know I am being filmed".

Kirra & trim would get on very well barb:). I have lost count of the amount of human food she has stolen... But never dog food. my girls wil happily eat out of the same bowl but the bone thing is kind of weird I think. My only guess is that they feel safety in numbers is best against the boys, lol.

When I feed the dogs bones, I generally just walk around with a bag of bones & drop one every couple of metres. Not sure who makes the move towards the other one (or why), but I often find the girls eating theirs side by side.

My elbow agrees with you Shaz. Something happened at Goulbourn & it's never been totally functional since. I even trained with food this morning to try to save it a bit.

awww thanks Sam I can't believe you already have Den im Masters & I haven't even seen him yet! Damn 12 hour drive!

I know & I am not excusing her lack of training/manners, just adding another viewpoint of where the vet may be coming from. They do sound like they have taken the advice as the easy way out of training her. Unfortunately she sounds like she won't get much out of obedience classes when they finally do take her .

Just to gve this another perspective, I waited until my Shine was 2 before I started training her for competition. Don't get me wrong, she certainly had a recall & basic manners at 6 months but I didn't feel she was ready for training either physically or mentally so I let her be the silly puppy she was & we just played a lot. Once I felt she was mature enough and I started to train her, things happened very quickly & by 2 1/2, she was at the stage I would expect for any of my dogs of that age. I don't believe training her at 6/12/18 months would have been the right thing to do for her and have never regretted my decision. Obviously had she been out of control or had any serious problems I couldn't live with, I would have done things differently.

I attended a seminar with her once. She put the rest of us to shame (her timing is really wonderful) & yes I am pretty sure I had tears in my eyes watching how amazing he is at following commands too!

I think it probably is more likely for people to drop out of clubs or large classes than from private or small. There are probably lots of reasons for this. Only certain types of people seek & are willing to pay for private classes & their incentive for doing so is also what keeps them there. It is easier for a student to feel a commitment to one or 2 people rather than a different instructor each week. Individual styles can vary (and even oppose) from instructor to instructor in a club which confuses people. lots of other reasons too. I think both have their place, they just attract & retain different type of handlers where there is a choice (and often there is not).

Thanks guys, but honestly this thread is so not about the instructor. I have taught lots of people over the years, this is about a student who stands out above the crowd and how refreshing it is to teach someone like this.

Do you use 'spin' or another command? I use "cross". It means turn away from me, and is the same command on both sides. On course, the degree of the turn is dependent on my accompanying body language.

My girls both have a spin & I use the same command for their rear cross. It seemed to transition from a trick into an agilty command pretty well. With Trim I taught it with her facing me initially. It doesn't seem to have done much harm, but I was careful to teach Shine from my side as well.

So often as trainers we encounter students that for various reasons are not a joy to train... and then you get the ones that are fantastic. We often talk about the ones that are challenging, but not as often about the ones that are great. I had a lesson this afternoon that has left me on a real high. A wonderful student who is a DOLer. She comes every week with a smile on her face. She comes having done her homework from the week before. She leaves making sure she knows what her homework is for next week. She never comes up with excuses for why things are the way they are/were or for why she doesn't want to try something. She asks if she doesn't understand something. She always tries as hard as she can. She retains knowledge & is able to apply it in different situations. She is able to recognise the differences & the similarities in her dogs & train/handle them accordingly. And best of all, I guess because of all the above, her handling and training are improving at a phenomenal speed. Today I watched her do a sequence that actually made me tear up a little. She didn't even realise it, but she had incorporated everything she has learnt recently & did it all like it was second nature. It looked awesome! Thank you K You really made my day .

I'm not sure a photo always accurately depicts what is going on in regards to take off point Here are 2 pics of Trim from the weekend Both are correct. In the first she is in extension, in the 2nd she is in collection. Pepe's jump style has always looked fine to me. I think he should go a bit slower though

He looks GREAT AD Very focussed & fast. Gawd that DW entrance was awful! Have to wonder what the judge was thinking...You did it with minimum fuss though, well done. Congrats to everyone, some very impressive brags here We had a great weekend in Newcastle, one of our best yet in terms of quallies & placings. Biggest brag is that both my girls did exactly what I wanted in every run other than dropping a couple of bars. We even had a couple of runs that I did not feel I could have improved in any way...those come very rarely but they are so awesome when they happen .

Just found the perfect use for the 2 check chains I have had sitting in a box for the last 10 years They lengthen the chain on my AFrame perfectly I knew I kept them for a reason

Yep, my Shine seems to be the heart dog of a number of people. We were at a trial on the weekend & about 10 people must have called her "my Shine" or "my girl". She returns the sentiment & has a number of people that are her "special people" I never have the heart to tell the people that there are a bunch of others who have the same relationship with her.

Bold vs shy is pretty complex, too. . Your point about bad nerve only referenced shy animals...hence I thought you may have been confused or misinformed I'm sure we all appreciate your efforts See this is why I suggested some professional help. Nor sure what your books say Corvus, but as an average owner, the above advice seems fraught with danger to me. As you pointed out, this is all very hard to diagnose over the internet. What you have suggested above could be fine...or it could give Gus enough confidence to challenge rather than avoid. It really does depend on exactly what is happening. Riley may interpret Gus's look as a stare/challenge. or it could change the dynamics completely & not necessarily for the best.

I wish that people would stop pronouncing dogs as having "bad nerve". It's not a character flaw. There are good reasons to be shy or cautious and every wild population has its share of shy individuals. Corvus, good vs bad nerve is a little more complex than bold vs shy. If Gus is out & about on his own, how to other dogs respond to him? I would be looking to get someone in to help pretty soon. Trying to overcome the submission may help...or it may lead to something much worse. PS Obviously I'm no behaviourist but do have some experience with dogs with bad nerve.