Vickie

basically you send into tunnel and then take off up the line. jumps start in a straight line. With each go you offset the jumps slightly. 1st jump moves a touch to the left, 2nd jump moves a touch to the right. The next time they move a little more. Dog learns to look for jump as it is done gradually. They end up zig zagging.

firstly I'd say I mostly want focus on line, rather than obstacle...tips for both would be: 1. Do not ever release dog from startline till dog is looking at Forward/at obstacle 2. Handler to focus ahead & keep moving, rather than look at dog 3. One jump type exercises where dog is rewarded for offering jump 4. U shape exercise with tunnel, start with send to curved tunnel, then 1 jump, tunnel, 1 jump, then 2 jumps, tunnel etc 5. Don't know what to call it but it's in Linda mecklenbergs new book. I have video of it somewhere, will try to find it 6. Solid Directional commands go on, get out, turn etc 7. Set the dog up on a leadout so they have a clear path to you, reward is given if they take the jump, reward is not given if they don't 8. Save your voice & arms for when you need them 9. Do not tolerate or engage in any jumping up or biting

Just wanted to add something I observed a couple if weeks ago at a sheep trial. It was very humid and we saw 4-5 dogs (bc's & a kelpie) suffer from heat & bounce back within 10-20 mins. Some of these dogs are farm dogs so well used to working for extended periods & in heat. My observation was that it tended to be the more intense dogs that suffered. They were working fine & then seemed to become a bit disorientated, did not seem to hear or take commands they had previously been taking well. Most continued to try to work but lost the sheep, a couple opted out & left the sheep altogether.

I am unlikely to change what I do with regards to throwing a toy b/c it works for me, and it works for lots of people I respect enormously. I only started this b/c I am curious as to how you would achieve the same results without throwing it Nek

Vickie do you mean the handler stands at say the start of a row of jumps and throws the toy? Where is the handler standing when they throw it say at a straight row of 3 jumps? I would never really be stationary when I throw the toy, since I will never be stationary on course. There are a number of situations I might thow a toy: on a straight line with me moving behind, to reward for moving ahead when asked as above with me moving laterally away while asking for & supporting the forward line anywhere on course that my dogs reads a cue so nicely that I want to reward it basically anywhere I want to reward the dog for moving towards me I would tug, anywhere I want to reward the dog for moving away I would throw a toy I also used thrown toys as a distraction. They are only to get the toy on a "yes get it" command. So if I throw a toy in the middle of weave poles, I expect completion before they are allowed to get the toy.

certainly not the minority in the agility world. Not trying to be argumentative, but I'm still confused if the reward is the handler interaction with the toy, what is the difference between the toy being on the ground, as in the video you posted, or thrown so that it lands in front if the dog as it is reachng the same point? In both instances, the reward is happening when the dog returns the toy to handler, yes?

I mean when you are running an agility course & there is a line of jumps where you want the dog to run ahead of you & take the obstacles. About 50% of courses have at least one sequence where it works to your advantage to have the dog driving ahead at speed without waiting for the handler. Something like this: I teach mine a Go On command, similar to what the video you posted shows. The toy will either be waiting in the video or it will be thrown. In the early stages I would rather throw the toy than place it. If you place it, the dog can miss obstacles, drop bars or not perform at speed & still be rewarded. As my dogs become more reliable in taking responsibility for obstacles, I would use a combination of placing & throwing. I tend not to throw tug toys as I want something I can throw a reasonable distance, I generally use a ball thrower or a frisbee. I have a solid retrieve first & the dog understands that returning the frisbee will earn tugging with it & returning the ball will earn it to be thrown again. I'm pretty sure this is the basis for Corvus starting this thread

nekhbet, how would you go about teaching a dog to drive 15-20 metres straight ahead of you over obstacles? For agility I would do this by either having them drive to a stationery toy or a thrown toy. Curious about other methods...

I'd be working in a smaller, not a larger area. If he goes mental for the isqueak, it shouldn't be too hard to get him to pick it up in a small area. Can he catch it? Start with him giving it to you after he catches it. Then get him to pick it up of the floor in front of you, then roll it etc. A bigger area will only give him the opportunity for distraction & encourage him not to chase or bring it back I also often find that sometimes the best way to train something for use as a reward IS to use/offer it as a reward. ie if you build enough anticipation and ask for a down, grabbing onto that toy you have thrown right in front of him is more likely to happen. The minute his mouth touches it, you can deliver a reward marker & then tug for all you're worth. Have you fixed his collar issue yet? Restraining him will help build anticipation. Failing all that, send him over here! We have a great record for dogs arriving with no desire to fetch a toy & leaving with an obsession for it

the artist is Carrie Sinclair from Ruffrenditions.

To have such totally amazing & thoughtful friends. Someone very special arrived at my house on the weekend with this. It was a total surprise & it took my breath away. In fact it still does every time I look at it. She went through my Flickr & picked a photo to have drawn. She could not have picked a more perfect representation of my beautiful boy. When I think of him, this is the Zeus I see. The way he looked for most of his life, happy smiling & adoring. I miss him so much but he is here with us, on the wall, smiling away at me whenever I want to see him. I am so grateful & so lucky.

how gorgeous! The one of Lara kissing Molly is just the sweetest pic ever

Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen for all concerned, better to rehome the rescue to a more appropriate home & find a match more suitable.

Really? Maybe I'm weird. I find the complete opposite. The more theory I read the better it all comes together as one unified system in my head. I go "Ah! That makes sense because I had already read this..." It's like joining the dots. I started "training" my hare before I knew about learning theory. But I am so much more successful with him now than I've ever been, and I attribute that directly to knowing more about behaviour in general. Although it probably helped that I had already learnt to pay closer attention to what my animal was signalling (thanks Erik). Not to diminish the importance of practice or simple experience, but I guess I feel like I can't do much until I have a good idea what's happening and why and whether I want to change it and how to achieve what ends. yes really. I don't think you are weird, but the 2 questions I would ask you are: are you the average person? And would you call yourself an accomplished trainer? I assume this thread is not specifically directed at those doing formal studies in animal behaviour. I think what I wrote is true for the average person who wants to train their dog/s to do something

just curious, are you saying this is impossible to ever resolve or just not possible with the range of solutions you have tested so far?

theory practice As much as I enjoy the theory and the possibilities it brings, it's the pointy end of dog training and most people just need to get going with a solid foundation using the absolute basics. Agreed. I love theory, I love practising it. It's hard to practise without some theory but personally I find theory useless if you do not practise it. I think when you surround yourself in theory (as seems to be the current trend), it can all become a bit of a mess in your mind. Read 10 different articles & you will read 10 different ideas. It is overwhelming sometimes & very hard for the average person to apply any of it. Some dog training requires complex theory to achieve the results you want, but not all. Some dog problems need analysis of why in order to fix them, many can just be fixed. The basic one liner of reward the good & ignore (or punish) the bad can actually make lots of training very simple. Why apply a page or a book of theory when the above line covers an extraordinary range of training challenges. I would liken dog training to photography. You can get a fancy camera. You can read a hundred manuals, view an online tutorial and be actively involved in a discussion forum. Yet until you actually start taking photos, you are not a photographer. There is no way you can get the best out of all the functions at once, no matter how much you have researched. There is no way you can take consistently good photos until a.) you have made some mistakes & learnt from them b.) you have practised over & over again with different functions/techniques c.) you have attempted a range of challenges d.) you stop & actually look at what is in front of you. Hope that makes sense, LOL, sometimes I go overboard with analogies, but it is just how I see it.

theory practice

I also know dogs who have great drive for food & toys in play/tricks but will not take them in agility because they were trained without them. These are dogs with very high work ethic. I am sure they could be trained to take them and enjoy it, but it would involve using agility as a reward for taking the toy/food until they worked out what the rules were. I'm not sure the same could be done with a sheepdog.

If I asked my dogs to play with a toy around sheep, I think they'd probably bite me I know heaps of very talented working dogs with incredibly strong instinct who play full on with toys, just not around livestock.

WOW, Kirislin & CM!!! They are amazing shots & tell such stories I can so imagine these mounted & hung in a gallery as an exhibition.

Just posted these & a few others in an album https://picasaweb.google.com/zenotri/Ludden...SheepTrial2011#

x 2 I would be using every meal for training

Each dog gets different sheep redangel. About half way through the day, all the sheep had been out once & came out s second time. it was really clear when this happened. The first time they came out the sheep were wild & very runny. Many good dogs failed to pick them up & did not get beyond the cast. The second time they came out, they were very difficult to move by all but the strongest dogs. The dogs that took the time to really settle either group worked very well but often ran out of time. The weather did not help at all, it was very humid

That's a good point

I can't remember the times, but I do remember that there was just over a second between 1st & 5th place. Pretty nail biting stuff for a final If I hadn't tripped after the weaves I think we could have come close, but doubt we would have gotten them. ;) Thank you, we have some great runs, but are just not quite as consistent as R&T...working on it though