poodlefan

PQM I wonder how much of our debate about 'rewards' is a matter of semantics rather than any actual difference of opinion. Perhaps you might assist me to get my head around this by explaining to me what, in your view' "motivates" your dog to work with you - for example in obedience competiton?

PQM: Can I suggest PQM that you have a more narrow definition of 'reward' than I do. I know of dogs that have never been trained with food but whose handlers use 'positive motivational methods'. The key is to find our what motivates the dog and there's plenty of dogs around who do better on praise than treats. Any one who thinks that training occurs outside of a relationship with the dog (be it positive or negative) ain't never trained one IMHO.

Aatainic: I've met a couple of dogs like this - they work to their own set of rewards and they were difficult to control. It may be great that a dog enjoys its work however, if I want to control when, where and how it works, I'm going to need some form of external system to get it to STOP. Yes, I could probably use an aversive but I'd rather be more positive. Give me a dog that looks to me for feedback any day, trained or untrained.

PQM: PQM, I suspect it does where the dog is not choosing the scent it follows. Sidoney is also right - some dogs enjoy agility more than others. The dogs who enjoy it the most are those ones who will run for anyone - some dogs only run for their own handlers. The self rewarding dogs are also sometimes the dogs who can be the most difficult to control... PQM can you ponder this for me? If my dog runs an agility course enthusiastically and accurately, and then at the end of the course, looks to me for a reaction should I NOT reward it because "it should just enjoy the run"? EVERY time a dog performs a task it may learn from it. Training is for life - reinforcing can be done during the performance of the task but the dog is still learning things even if all it is learning is that perfomance must be better or more sustained to earn rewards. I don't know of any skill that isn't practiced to improve and sustain perfomance. To not encourage sustained performance is to risk a lowering of how a task is performed. What is the training issue with rewarding a dog for a job well done? Would you expect a person to give you of their best because "they should just enjoy their work"? I'm not just interested in performance but in optimum performance and for that you have to give feedback. Any sentient being will work harder at a task if they believe they will gain a benefit from it. Dogs are no different IMHO. When you talk about rewards, you appear to focus only on food or toys. Isn't praise a reward too? Can't speak for you PQM but I get a buzz when I'm praised for a job well done and it certainly motivates me to maintain or even improve my performance. Isn't that every leader's job- to find out what motivates and to encourage and reward optimum performance. Hey, even a "good dog Fido" is a reward. I've seen agility and obedience dogs whose handlers adopt the approach you appear to be suggesting - suffice it to say, these are not the dogs who give of their best. Even worse are the dogs who get blamed for handling errors - they don't tend to be winners.

You may not be wrong PQM but personally I don't agree with you. Furthermore, I can think of no work activity for which a dog receives no natural or handler provided reward. Perhaps livestock guarding (however the dog is rewarded in the successful protection of its "pack")? Even guide dogs get rewards. Sniffing for signs of prey is considerably different to tracking a SPECIFIC handler selected target or to identifying a scent that is not part of a dog's natural diet and won't be killed and consumed. Wanna see a Beagle work its butt off with no external reward? Put it in a paddock with rabbit scent and it will take off and follow that scent for HOURS... ask it to find a banana peel and its motivation is not the same. Remove the chance of the kill and you have to provide an incentive to work... Not natural behaviour? I think you need a reward or aversive IMHO.

PQM: PQM you have narrowed the context of training considerably here. Essentially you've limited discussion to the type of 'work' which is essentially instinctive. Herding is, after all, a modified and controlled form of hunting. Let most sheep trained BC run loose long enough and you'll witness this. I would argue to train a dog to do anything that is not within its natural instincts will require some kind of reward (edited to add: or aversive) I didn't need to train my dogs to chase a lure - they do it natually and the chase is its own reward. To require a dog to do other than obey its instincts is going to require some kind of motivation - either positive or negative. Agility, gun dog work, scent work, detection work all utilize natural instincts but most are not (at least initially) self rewarding behaviours. Herding is!

PQM: So an explosives detection dog that works its butt off for a tug game with a towel or a throw tennis ball is somehow frivolously trained too? Surely knowing what motivates a dog and using that motivation can never be frivolous. For what its worth, I have never observed an AQIS beagle being fed whilst working at an airport. Perhaps you observed a trainee? All dogs work for reward, the better trained the dog, the less is the need to constantly reinforce with rewards - but to expect the dog to work with NO prospect of reward is to ask something of our dog that we would not do ourselves IMHO. Lessening the frequency of rewards/improving the standard of response that generates a reward is just another phase of the training. I too, don't agree with using 'bribery' constantly to obtain desired responses from dogs. However, be it food, toys, praise or what ever, I'll use what ever works best.

PQM: why using treats constantly "of course"? Many of the agility dogs trained at our club aren't trained on treats AT ALL. Other motivators are used eg. balls, toys, praise. My guess would be that you were watching a foundation level class. When the skill is being learned, more positive reinforcement is used "of course". As the dog's skills and enthusiasm increase, agility becomes its own reward. ANKC competition prohibits the carrying or use of any motivators in the ring. If you can't motivate your dog to perform without constant 'bribing' with treats, there's no way you can compete. A successful agility team has a strong and constructive relationship between dog and handler that is based on considerably more than food. Perhaps you might have gained a better appreciation of that by observing a competition rather than a training class. I'd be interested your views on how a dog performing an agility obstacles happiness differs substantially from that of a well trained gun dog returning with a bird or a protection dog bringing down a person. Its all training PQM - its merely the objective that might appear frivolous or immature in the eyes of the beholder.

Ricey: Ricey, never picked you for a wuss! I do it straight into my hand under a running tap and bath straight away. I gave a lengthy description of expressing glands in the 'poodle grooming' thread a couple of months ago. You might like to see if we follow similar methodology.

I would imagine that impacted or full glands would be uncomfortable at best but possibly painful. You need plenty of 'bulk' to make the gland express (unless you want to give your dog a good fright - not recommended). I'd seek further veterinary advice - so many variables and some breeds are more prone than others.

Expressing anal glands needs 'hands on' instruction... get your vet or groomer to show you how and watch you do it. Increasing the fibre in her diet may help - more chicken wings etc. My vet also recommended mashed pumpkin. However, if its an ongoing problem, you may need to have one (not necessarily both) removed. Make sure you use a vet who is has experience with this op - sometimes faecal incontinence is an unwanted consequence.

If you are talking PURELY positive reinforcement M&B, then my answer would be no. Some negatives (not necessarily harsh or abusive) are necessary in dog training IMHO. However, as a general training method, it can be highly successful for many dogs.

Aatainic writes: Anecdotally, there seems to be a link to hot spots too....

No doubt about it Aatainic, BARF puppies are string beans! Darcy started out on 4 meals a day and didn't stop having 2 meals a day until he was about 14 months old. :rolleyes: I find that feeding cereals, particularly in a drop eared breed can lead to yeasty ears... I just up the fattiness of the RMBs eg. upping from chicken necks to wings.

PW, if you find lamb on the nose, I'd recommend using chicken. I don't feed lamb all that often because its very high fat content makes one of my boys ill. Most BARFers use chicken as the basis of their dogs diet and its less expensive than lamb. Wings, drumsticks or carcasses (you can cut them up) would all be good and you won't have to worry about flies because Sooki won't leave any lying around. If you don't have a good pair of kitchen scissors or poultry shears, I'd recommend buying some - they make dealing with chicken a breeze. :rolleyes:

Yep, Sidoney, Dr B moved away from feeding cereal. Grow Your Pups With Bones is great for new puppy buyers. In additon to puppy specific feeding advice, the book is better structured than GYDAB. Dr B has a newer one out - "The BARF Diet" or similar but I don't got that one yet.

PW, it not likely that the diet you've been given is from Billinghurst, or if it is, its not a recent one. He doesn't support the feeding of cereal to dogs anymore and frankly, there's not enough raw meaty bones in it. I fed from GYBWB - two meals of BARF mix and one RMB initially then upped the RMBs. Root vegetables such as sweet potato and also pumpkin are excellent sources of fibre too. When I do a veggie mix, I always try for at least one fruit, one root vegetable and one green vegetable. :rolleyes:

T & D writes: If she's fat T&D, and she doesn't have a medical condition that's causing it then it can only be two causes - too high a calorie intake or not enough exercise or both. Since exercise wasn't the issue, how else would you have suggested cutting her weight? Quantity of food is a poor measure IMHO. How your dog feels is more important.

Byott, you should be feeding him what ever the breeder (is this a GR?) advocates, at least initially. Weetbix is nutritionally of little value to dogs - its cereal. Dogs have no need for milk after they are weaned and frankly a good diet should mean that there's no need to feed a dog expensive puppy milk. Eggs are good but in moderation. I'd recommend a good commercial puppy food (kibble) and raw meaty bones eg. chicken wings. Or you might want to do some research on raw feeding (eg. BARF). Dr Billinghurst's book Grow Your Pups with Bones is/was my bible on raising a pup. If this IS a big breed, pup you want to keep it lean and grow it slowly - its important to assist with healthy hips.

Cat, it does grind up the seeds. I find coring apples with a corer to be a pain so will just chop them into pieces and through the core away.

Have you spaniel owners tried grooming with a Coat King? My spaniel owning friends (some of whom show) swear by them for stripping coat. Having seen one in use, they certainly are very effective and produce a much nicer result than clipping.

I make up the veggies to 50% of the meal, but they only eat those every three days - the other two days is RMB's. I add eggs, yoghurt, Missing Link and other bits and pieces if I have them to the meat/veggie mix. I feed the odd canned fish meal too. The poodles are fond of Snappy Tom Pilchards in fish oil in those foil packets. Just as well, the cat won't touch it.

I agree with other posters - your girl sounds like she is getting too much food to eat. My vet's advice is that if your dog is overweight, its better to get the weight off FAST. Regardless of what kind of diet your dog is on (and an all meat one sounds unhealthy IMHO), she recommends HALVING the quantity of food you feed. Once you have the dog at the desired level of weight (you should be able to feel ribs without pressing hard on the rib cage), then slowly increase the amount until the dog is maintaining weight. I don't weigh my dogs food - fat content etc can vary soooo much. I do it by eye and use feeling my dogs ribs as the method of watching their weight.

Hmm Jeanne, I just did a search and you are on the money - apple seeds can be toxic to dogs. Looks like its back to chopping up apples again (sigh)

Jeanne writes: Must say that's the first I've heard about apple seeds. I've fed so many apple cores to horses and dogs over the years (even eaten some myself) and never had a problem. Now apricot seeds - they are nasty.