poodlefan

The simplist method of dealing with this is to train an reliable off lead recall. Call your dogs to you while you establish whether the owner of the other dogs is happy for them to play. You should mind.... you know your dogs are OK but one day they might approach a dog who isn't. If you think people with dog aggressive dogs can't be found in off leash parks, think again.

Those who like to argue that prongs are "cruel" and haltis are fabulous should contempate this: Most dogs find halti's highly aversive. They are aversive whether the dog is pulling or not. Futhermore, they don't prevent pulling. Halti's do cause health issues. Read the following if you don't believe me. Edited to take author's name out as I haven't been able to get his permission to quote him. I'm working on it though.

Husky87: Perhaps she worked for a chiropractic vet? Personally I agree with the vet nurse and there is evidence to support her views. You'd be better of using a prong IMHO. If your dog pulls on the halti it COULD end up with serious problems - and most dogs do. TDS does have a point - most young dogs can be taught not to pull, thereby negating the need for most of them to be walked with anything more than a flat collar. Maybe the person at Petbarn has a lousy idea of anatomy and met the trachea rather than the oesophegus. I'd take the advice as well intentioned but perhaps somewhat uninformed???

An ounce of prevention will work better than any cure. Lets start with the basics (as others have suggested). How much meaningful exercise do your dogs get every day? Do you do any kind of training with them. If it's boredom barking, the only real solution is to eliminate the boredom through physical and mental exercise. Citronella collars don't have a perfect track record - borrow them before you buy - DAS rent them I believe???? Don't forget there is always debarking. Definitely a last resort but it sure beats having your dogs baited.

I'll make my advice short: Tell us where you live. That will help locals point you in the direction of a good, positive motivational dog training club. You'll get all the help you've asked for, and more there. BCs are active, very intelligent dogs that need plenty of mental and physical stimulation - formal training will help with this and help you train your puppy into an obedient, happy dog.

Lillysmum: All my dogs are companion dogs. First and foremost. All of them are now desexed. One of them was a show dog but is no longer. Next dog will be a show dog but a companion dog before anything else. If you are asking do I or would I foster? No. I have neither the time, nor the types of dogs who handle frequent newcomers to my house. I spend too much time training and trialling my own dogs to do justice to a foster. I would also not willingly take a dog from a pound environment straight into my home due to concerns about my own dogs health and welfare. I don't have a kennel set up that would allow me to quarantine dogs until I knew more about their health and temperament. If you are asking do I regularly donate goods and money and assist where I can with grooming and referrals... of course I do. I support a couple of rescuers here on DOL and any poodle in need I learn of . I also try to educate myself on all dog related issues, including rescue. ETA - I have also done obedience and agility demonstrations at pound/RSPCA and other events to promote the importance and joy of having a well trained dog.

Lillysmum: No dog I own will be desexed before the age of 14 months because the best veterinary advice I can find says that from a physical development point of view, earlier desexing is detrimental. If I choose to own and show a registered pedigreed dog and to keep it entire (although I am not a registered breeder) then why shouldn't I? I think the numbers of unwanted dogs that die in pounds is a tragedy. However, few of them are purebreds, few of them are pups and the most common reason they are surrendered is due to "behavioural difficulties" which is a easy way for people to say they haven't chosen and trained their dog well. Perhaps you need to spend a bit more time researching WHY dogs end up in pounds before concluding that desexing will solve the problem. It's precisely the kind of "desex em all" dogma you espouse in this thread Lillysmum that will see responsible caring dog owners forced into a corner with regard to whether or not to desex their dogs. This is what is being proposed in Qld right now. If you think it will solve the problem of unwanted dogs, then I suggest you need to do more research.

Alpha: Yes, and I make my dogs available for stays if I am not qualifying and they need numbers. I trust my dogs and I also don't want to abuse their trust in me. If I have concerns about another dog interfering with my dog, I chose not to place them in a position where they may be badly frightened or harmed. Interference would be of less concern to me if I had a larger dog but a small dog IS vulnerable to harm. My dogs have held their stays in the face of birds in front of them and dogs noses under them. We've had balls thrown, prams pushed and dogs weave in and out and my dogs trust me that no harm will come to them from any of this. I have no intention of "proofing" my dog not to break when jumped on or interfered with because for that to happen means that I have betrayed their trust in me to protect them. I'm not talking about dogs getting up and wandering around but dogs who actually make a beeline for others. My dogs safety relies on the control every handler in the obedience ring has over their dogs in the stays. I think it only fair that handlers have at least a reasonable expectation of control when entering obedience trialling or that they are reasonably confident their dog won't interfere with others. I can't tell you how heart breaking it is to have months of proofing undone by one handler "having a go" to see if their dog will do something its never successfully done in training. It's happened both to me and to others. Dressage runs "unofficial" tests for people who simply want to try - perhaps that's what obedience could do too.

Dogdude: OK. :D :D

Dogdude: I know, I'm one of them. :D No, you don't take them out but you do insist that they meet a minimum standard of control. More and more sports are insisting on that for both safety and legal issues. Yes, it is thank God. However that's little consolation after the event to the owners of other dogs and even a "friendly" big dog bouncing on top of yours can do a fair bit of damage when your dog weighs only 4 kg. Yep, the more the merrier provided they have their dogs under control and don't get po faced when they fail. You don't have to be perfect to compete but would you go into stays saying "oh he's never made the time before so we'll just see how he goes?" and then when you dog breaks in the sit stay, want to have another go at the down? Yep, the joy of DOL. :D I take you point about encouraging particpation but look at Eddie the Eagle - bloody hopeless but not to the point of danger or harming other competitors. He had to meet a standard to compete.

Dogdude: Yep, and a lot don't. Personally I consider both Novice and CCD to be "real trialling levels" albeit only elementary ones. It's not very encouraging to be told to "have a go"and to fail dismally is it without really knowing why? That's what I see some people doing. I encourage my students to compete when they are ready, not before. Why set someone up to fail? You can encourage by showing someone what's expected and then helping them meet that standard. I also encourage newbies to steward at trials - gets them right into the ring where they can see what happens and what "success" looks like. I don't get involved just to win (just as well :D ). I got involved initally to do things with my dogs. I get involved now to test my dogs against a set standard and to obtain titles. I wouldn't expect to walk onto a cricket pitch in an organised game without having done enough training, having some skill or knowing the rules - why do people do want to encourage that in dog sports?

Leo: I think I was more just relieved we'd finally made it. That dog reads me like a book... he'd be like "what's wrong, why are you so freaked out?". I had to completely change my focus away from worrying about how we were doing and onto making it a really positive experience for Ted - that required a whole change of body language and smiling quietly at him till my face ached. Darcy couldn't give a rats about my nerves - he's made of sterner stuff. I've just started him in formal obedience training and am looking foward to seeing how he goes.

Leo: Ah yes, those would be the people who've never confronted a training challenge and whose dogs succeed despite them, not because of them. I've seen people succeed with some dogs who need to be clairvoyant to read their footwork and cues. Lucky handlers I say. If it makes you feel better, my oldest boy Ted finally got his CD this year aged 8 - we trialled for the first time when he was 2! :D Nothing wrong with the dog but I had the WORST nerves. Some time out of obedience and into agility helped a lot. Only having to do one heeling pattern in Novice also helped Ted keep his focus.

Dogdude: It doesn't have to be provided they have been given sufficient training and guidance to prepare them for the sport. We've seen first timers knock off more experienced people in the trialling ring this year here. The ACT has seen a raft of new obedience competitors this year.. many of them have succeeded in obtaining their CCDs and are going on with obedience but they did the preparation first. Sometimes they had to conquer their nerves and polish up their handling but basically they could perform the essential features of each exercise. Others simply haven't put in the work and expected that somehow CCD would have a lower standard of judging than Novice does. It doesn't - the exercises may be simpler but they are not judged to a lower standard - either your dog can perform them or lead or it can't. Actually seeing an obedience trial is a good idea before entering one. Some people haven't and have no idea how it works. That's serious lack of preparation. The future of the sport will not be aided by instructors encouraging people to "have a go" only to have expectations dashed because they simply aren't ready. There's been some of that here this year. Some of the instructors responsible have not trialled themselves and really don't understand what's involved. That's an emerging issue as clubs like mine that used to focus on formal obedience trialling training change their focus to more companion dog training. We have mock trials and non-offical competition days for people to see if they are ready. They get feedback from the judges there too about how they are going. Rally O was touted for a while as a good introduction to obedience. I think it is as the ring atmosphere is far less formal. However the powers that ran Rallyo actively discouraged obedience triallers from competing. Go figure. I consider it to be no more than good sportsmanship not to compete in any sport with a dog that is likely to interfere with other dogs. Some people do precisely that and don't give a fig that they may undo months of training for another dog.

Jesomil: Ah dogs, they know how to keep us humble. I recall Ted my oldest dog one day doing a lightening fast recall and a perfect sit in front... of the judge who was about 5 feet behind me to my right. He gave the "finish your dog" command and Ted went perfect around behind him to sit at MY side. Little bugger.

Hi poodlefan, Serious question here - is this possible to teach? Say from a young age, can you teach your pup to just NEVER pull on the lead, and therefore it will never need a correction? I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, I'm genuinely interested in your answer for when I get my new pup. Thanks, Cassie In short ... yes. And I have the dog to prove it. Darcy loose lead walks beautifully and he was taught that if he put pressure on his collar we ceased to move forward. He simply doesn't pull. He's been taught so well that a "restrained recall" where the dog is encouraged to strain towards the handler to get a quick release (used in agility training) simply doesn't work. If anyone restrains him he doesn't resist. I think its as much to do with who he is as his training but yep, it can be done. So from day 1 with your new pup, you encourage him to be where you want him to be, reward for the relaxation of the lead (a great use of the clicker) and never let him positively reward himself for pulling (which is why dogs do it more and more - its rewarding). Of course, you need to teach this to the pup by himself.

Where's my rock: Yep. The view of some dog people is that anyone with a dog and a lead can get a CCD - and some handlers are trying to prove it. I don't think it does handlers any good if some instructors are encouraging them to "have a go" when they simply can't perform the exercises well. People are turning up and leaving very disappointed. My obedience judge friends are also telling me that they are getting some fairly narky competitors who "expect" to pass and get argumentative when they don't. It didnt' help when a prominant NSW conformation judge wrote in the Dogs NSW column that the introduction of CCD meant "now any of us and a dog can get an obedience title".

Dogdude: If you cannot think of any situation where physical control of your dog might be an issue, then sure, leave it off. However, I cannot completely control my walking environment. If I owned a very large breed dog where physical control was an issue, I'd be leaving the device on. Having heard of 65kg + dogs taking their owners grass skiing on haltis, I think that sometimes that level of control (whether used or not) is a safety issue. Remember too that unlike a halti, there is no aversive affect from a prong if the dog is NOT pulling.

Privileged no. But I consider it to be extremely poor form to take your dog into stays when you are merely hoping it will work and when you know there's a chance it will "interfere" with other dogs. People do. If a dog merely breaks position or goes to its handler well, that can happen to anyone. However, I don't believe my dogs should be used as experimental subjects for trainers who are merely wondering if their dogs will leave mine alone. Some handlers in the lower levels are prepared to "give it a go" at the expense of those who've done the training. Some are encouraged by instructors to enter trials to see where they are at. As a person who doesn't enter trials unless my dogs can complete the exercises I don't have a lot of time for that. I recall a dog who had left the ring twice in the old Novice encouragement and run through both UD and CDX rings lining up with me for the stays. The dog had not passed a single exercise in the individual exercises. In the ACT you are not excused from the ring when you fail but are allowed to continue on. I asked that it be spaced further away from the dogs on passes and after one of those classic "over protective little dog owner" glances from the judge, he agreed. Dog got up and bounced all over on the dog closest to him which fortunately was not mine. Considering how long it had taken me to proof my timid dog to hold her ground, at that stage I was profoundly relieved. This is the same dog of mine that later didn't move a muscle with an entire male three times her sizes shoving its nose under her in the downs stays. If your dog is likely to interfere with other dogs in the stays then it shouldn't be there IMHO. If people aren't prepared to do the right thing, why should other competitors and their dogs pay the price.

If your dog breaks, your dog breaks. It has failed the exercise. Whether or not it gets another go is up to the judge. I'd suggest short of total carnage, it won't. I've had dogs in stays where there have been barking dogs, fighting dogs, and one male dog get up and shove its nose under my bitch's butt (to her credit she did not move but I was wishing the stewards were faster). I've heard of dogs urinating on other dogs too. This is the reason why I HATE competitors who've failed CCD or Novice individual exercises doing stays when they dont' really think their dogs will make it. God I do love a judge that does one set of stays for dogs who are passing and one for the rest.

Ah yes, the evil prong collar. Universally condemned by people who call themselves "purely positive" trainers and yet these people advocate the use of haltis, citronella collars etc. Go figure. Lets establish the facts. ANY physical method of controlling a dog uses aversion. Pressure on the flat collar, the limited slip collar, the prong, the halti - it's ALL aversive. Where "aversive" becomes "abusive" is a line we should and do debate. I train only using flat collars but lets remember my heaviest dog weighs 6 kilos. If I needed more 'control', I'd opt for the limited slip collar and then the prong. I'd NEVER use a halti if I had a choice. Why? Because this "positive" method of control is extremely aversive to many dogs and that aversion is constant - whether the dog is pulling or not. I don't call continual application of an aversive effective training. Furthermore, they can and do cause long term harm to a dog's neck. Open minded trainers, regardless of their training philosophy examine all training tools for themselves and determine which will work with their methods. Don't knock halti's, E-collars until you've examined them for yourself. Any tool can be abused and some supposedly "abusive" tools can, in the right hands, be extremely humane and effective methods of training. If the choice for the dog is to be walked on a prong, or not walked at all, from a welfare perspective, I favour the first option. Of course the most effective method of training loose lead walking is never to let the dog learn to pull. Once you're dealing with a habitual puller you are probably going to have to exert some method of physical control while teaching the dog to walk on a loose lead.

Hi BMP, we have 8.5 inch Roseline and Jaguar straights and curved at my place and a big 10 inch pair of curveds also. "Feel" in the hand is important - some scissors suit some people better than others. Give me a yell if you want to come over and try them.

I agree with the advice above - you need to get someone in to help you out with this. In the meantime, try to find a small limited slip (martingale) collar for your dogs. Properly fitted, they will not be able to pull one off over their heads.

Nell, if you end up joining the ACT Companion Dog Club, there are a group of people from there who do field training. I have a good friend at CDC who has a Cocker who has her UD, AD, JD and also has wins at gundog working tests over the more traditional retrieving breeds - she is a very good retriever and is doing some training for non-slip. She is from straight show lines. Turning up at CDC with a Cocker will be enough to bring my friend over to chat! One of the issues confronting Cockers is the type of country and the sheer physical effort the smaller dogs require to retrieve their birds - its hard work to cover both land and water. It would be very difficult to knock off the working line retrievers and the runs are suited to the bigger dogs. I would agree that do compete at the top levels in obedience, agility and field work is a big ask - but if your expectations are realistic, you can still try each sport and have a lot of fun. ;) Gundog working tests would be a great place to try out your dog's retrieving skills. Edited to add - two kennels to look at if you are interested in Cockers with some working ability would be Gunwise and Gunoush. Gunoush is a DOL member and has imported dogs that have past their working ability tests in Europe.

Here's some information to help you understand your dog: Dogs are a social animal. They want to be with their 'pack'. In buying this puppy, you and your partner became your dog's pack. Dog packs sleep together and hang out together. Prolonged physical isolation from other pack members is not natural or normal for a dog. To go from sleeping with his pack to being isolated from it most of the day would be very distressing to your dog. If he can't physically get to you he will get as close as he can. That means he will gravitate to a spot where he can see you or where you emerge ie the back door. Buy a kennel (dog's like to sleep in smaller spaces than a big room) and put it so he can see you from the kennel. The garage may be a mansion to you but he prefers a smaller cosier 'den'. Give him a clear line of sight from the kennel to the back door and put it as close as possible to there. The decision to have the dog sleep outside is yours to make. It's not what I would do but I would hope that you at least give your dog some time inside. BUY A CRATE - it means that you can set it up and your dog can be under complete control when you can't watch him. It will help meet his need for social contact. Most 'outside' dogs don't get a lot of time with their people. Twice a day feeding and the odd walk will not meet your dog's social needs. That means you need to find ways to spend time with him - dog training (both classes and practice) is a very positive way to do this. Some time inside just chilling out with you would be great too. You basically own the equivalent of an active three year old child. Lab and ACD pups are intelligent, active pups with big needs for physical AND mental stimulation - your dog will be a mix of both. Both breeds have been selectively breed to work closely with people. You need to be doing a lot of work to ensure that this pup gets enough mental stimulation (and when he is a little older physical exercise) to keep him happy. Dog training is the best way to do this - you will learn how to control him, how to get him responsive to your cues and basically develop more of an understanding of what makes him tick. DO THIS NOW because he's only going to get more out of control if you don't teach him self control - I picture this dog without training in another 6 months time and I shudder. Its far easier to teach a pup the right way to behave than to have to break an adult dog of bad habits. I bet he goes absolutely ballistic if he's ever allowed in the house. Picture his reaction from HIS point of view - he'd be soooo excited. Your job is to teach hiim that certain behaviours are expected of him when he's inside - he ain't going to do anything other than go beserk if he knows no better. Give him things to play with or he will find his own - barking, digging and destruction of your garden will be the price you pay for not keeping him occupied. You don't have to spend big money - a few nice meaty bones, empty plastic soft drink bottles and some tough toys from a cheapie warehouse will help.l Do the right thing by this pup and he will grow up to be a well mannered, well controlled, pleasant dog to live with. Do nothing and I'll bet within three months your partner will be urging you to get rid of him. Train him to walk nicely on lead and you will be able to give him the exercise he's going to need as he grows. He'll be pulling your arms off soon if you don't teach him the right way to walk.