poodlefan

Vickie: They probably do but many training methods focus on the horse yielding to pressure, not opposing it.

Haven: I doubt it Haven.. every time I ask questions about what ACTUALLY happened Andoria seems to disappear. She did seem to be backpeddling faster than Lance Armstrong once the police got mentioned though.

Ya know what folks.. I reckon Andoria gave the trainer as clear a picture of what happened on DOL as she gave us of the training methods used. The trainer's jumped on DOL, read comments about baseball bats, ACA and Fair Trading. She's been upset... and somehow Andoria's interpreted that as the trainer got hate emails. Whaddya say Andoria.. is that what happened??

Vickie: It's interesting that with a dog the expectation is that the dog will resist the pressure whereas with a horse the horse will yield to pressure. Predator v prey response I suppose.

I think someone needs to order Popcorn. Andoria your comprehension skills need some work. Jeff Jones provided police contact details so that the trainer could report the harassment. How on earth could that be construed as threatening them. Of course your trainer is using different methods... NOW. It's amazing how educational a good dog bite can be. I bet she's one hell of a lot more circumspect about "restraint therapy" with dogs in the future. Reminds me of a story I was told about a "trainer" who recommended a food resource guarding dog be "cured" by grabbing the food bowl and growling at the dog directly in it's face. No prizes for guessing what kind of an "education" the trainer received for that approach.

Lillysmum: Because so many dogs are walked on lead. Its what Myzska and Erny said. Dogs do it because it profits them to do so. What they have to learn is that it won't. You teach them that they don't get to move in the direction they wish to go unless the lead is loose. A smart dog can get the basics of that in 10 minutes if you use a clicker - the skill is in training the handler to do it. If you start with a puppy and do all the right things they will never learn be a habitual puller. People let their pups tow them on lead because a pup isn't as strong. The habit becomes ingrained and it only becomes a problem for the handler (it doesn't tend to be one for the dog) when the dog starts pulling their arm out of its socket. Personally, part from "come", I think loose lead walking is the most important lesson a dog needs to learn. The reason for that belief is that dogs that aren't easy to walk on lead usually end up languishing in back yards, never being walked at all.

Andoria: And you think this is an acceptable outcome from a training method. Jesus Your dog has learned he needs to defend himself from you. He is afraid of what happens when he's handled. What's going to happen if some unsuspecting person puts their hands in your dog's collar? Think about the consequences of what your dog's been forced to do by this trainer. This dog is now a biter.. who fears being handled by it's collar and will defend itself with it's teeth. And you now think this is "normal". I give up.

Andoria: And you think this is an acceptable outcome from a training method. Jesus Your dog has been taught he needs to defend himself from you. What's going to happen if some unsuspecting person puts their hands in your dog's collar? Think about the consequences of what your dog's been forced to do by this trainer. This dog is now a biter.. who fears being handled by it's collar and will defend itself with it's teeth. And you now think this is "normal". I give up.

Andoria: Then why has your dog bitten you? Why are you being told to shove him down the stairs if he runs up them or to slam a door on him if he goes through it in front of you. Andoria you've had three days training experience with this trainer and your dog. I've personally trained well over 100 people to teach their dog to walk on a loose lead without having to jerk them around, force them to a sit or walk them into walls. For what it's worth, you can shed the persecution complex. I posted in this thread before you did. I reserve the right to correct advice that I think is at best unhelpful and at worst abusive. How firm is the "firm tug" you recommend. Is tugging the dog clean off it's feet OK? The OP has a 7 month old small breed puppy that pulls on the lead and a spinal problem . How much success do you think she'll have repeatedly hauling this dog into position and jerking it to a sit.

Andoria: Will he walk on a loose lead at any position in a 360 degree circle and not allow the lead to tighten? That is what loose lead walking teaches. Sooo you are correcting him for being in front of you on a tight lead by stopping him beside you.... how does that work? How does that teach him that he may be in front of you but on a loose lead. What cue are you using to tell him he may be in front of you on a loose lead? Andoria, your trainer's recommendations have gotten you bitten and seen your dog actively avoid you. Just consider for a moment that there are trainers out there who can teach you to train your dog to obey you because he wants want to, not because of the consequences of disobedience. These methods do not involve physical compulsion. If your method is working so well, take the lead off and see what your dog does.

It's interesting how many people want to use the lead to pull and brake their dogs while walking. I'm always on my student's back about it and I ask this question. What method wiill you use to get the dog in the correct heeling position when the lead comes off ? I can't stand push, pull, get physical methods of dog training for one simple reason (among others): It only works when the dog is within arms reach. For much of the things we do with our dogs, they ain't. Basically it's bullying. Remove the dog from the scope of being able to use force and it's no wonder so many give their handlers the finger.

Andoria: You are talking about a rather crude method of teaching the "heel" Andoria. The OP wanted to know how to teach her dog to walk freely on a loose lead. Two quite separate exercises. Most people don't want their dog to heel all the time when they walk them. They are not the same thing. Do you think, given the issues you are having with your dog, that you are qualified to give advice on this topic.

Myzska: Nah, not that angry, just peed off that once again people try to help and get shat on. As I said in the other thread, my guess is that Andoria has contacted the trainer and referred to the DOL thread. Trainer has come on here, read thread and come out swinging... those references to ACA and Fair Trading are in the thread and the coincidence is striking. Sooo Andoria, was it you who referred the trainer to DOL?

Go to another vet. Don't be fobbed off. An potential intestinal blockage is not something I'd be dealing with over the phone.

In a word... training. No words can explain half as well as a demonstration by a good dog trainer. Join a class conducted by a good dog club or trainer in your area. However, if your dog has had 5 months to learn how to pull on a lead it will take some dedication to cure him of the habit. Don't believe a word about halti's, harnesses etc "curing" the problem.. it is a training issue pure and simple.

Andoria1 Thanks very much. As a person who posted in that thread, I can quite happily say two things: 1. I sent no email. The person concerned would have no way of identifying whether the sender of any email was a DOL member unless they outed themselves. I never visited the website and a check of the hits on it would reveal that. Why would I want to look at the website of a person whose training methods are outdated by about 50 years. 2. I don't enjoy being called an F***ng idiot. Start seeking your training advice elsewhere my dear because this is at least one person who won't be responding to any further requests for advice. If you really want to improve the situation, for a start I suggest you get off the damn internet and give your dog at least 1.5 hours of exercise a day. EVERY DAY. Your accusations are offensive and unfounded. Pause for a moment and remember as others have said that you don't need to be a member to read this website. You might also reflect on who caused the problem by identifying the trainer in the first place. And they wonder why some long term DOLers get "short" with some posters.

Roo: Sorry to disappoint you but this simply isn't true. There are plenty of dogs around that never get it because they learn that eliminating in the house is OK. It's a frequent complaint that "toy" breeds are hard to toilet train but personally I think it's more about owner tolerance/dedication than breed. My vet's view is that a dog that isn't toilet trained by about 5 months (this means a dog that has house access) is going to be very difficult to cure of the problem. Older dogs that haven't been house trained can be trained but need the same training as puppies. Erin having the door open won't help if your dog doesn't know to go outside. I would encourage him outside on his own four paws rather than carrying him - it helps build the message about taking himself out.

Erin. I think it will help.

Erin: Then you get the reality check of your life. If he's starting to hide when he goes inside, my guess is your OH is undermining your efforts with the growling. If you can't supervise him closely you need to have him contained. EVERY TIME he gets up from rest, take him outside. Ditto when he wakes, eats, drinks, plays etc. If he ain't gone in 10 minutes take him back outside and watch him like a hawk. Some dogs take longer than others. My vet once said for every accident they do in the house, expect five more. You absolutely positively have to watch him or keep him contained. What are the arrangements for during the day/when you aren't there? You can't really expect complete bladder and bowel control before 5 months. In the meantime, its up to you to get him outside. He has gone outside, return him to that spot and just sit quietly... let him wander around.

Yep, take him OFF the lead. Let him wander around sniff and decide for himself where he wants to go. I assume you have a secure back yard? If not, then take him out on a long line. He needs to stop focussing on you and start focussing on going to the loo.

Dogbesotted: There are far more causes than these... any viral, toxic or other "shock to the system" may produce the condition in dogs. Some breeds like Border Collies are more prone to it than others. Two friends of mine have dogs who have survived the condition - at great financial and personal expense to their owners. One is on meds, one requires none. Dogs affected were a BC and a Silky/Maltese cross. Cause of the condition in the first dog was traced to a rare parasite.. in the second no cause found. The drugs used to treat the disease are very full on and its sometimes a case of a race to see if the drugs kick in before THEY kill the dog. If owner's require support and a friendly chat with someone who's been through this, PM me Mita and I'll hook you up.

The biggest con is that most US clippers won't work on our 240 volt power. You can buy 240 volt clippers from the US but you need to be careful.

Sibes Only: I'm glad this worked for you Sibes but it's not a method I'd recommend to most people. Do it to the wrong dog and you'll get bitten. Some dogs simply won't tolerate being pushed around. Don't confuse physical dominance with social dominance - there IS a difference. I reckon we've got the bigger brain for a reason. You can learn to be dominant without ever having to get into a physical contest with a dog. BTW, Dr Harry ain't a behaviouralist. I see some of his recommendations for behaviour modification and just shudder.

Skuzy: Which is bad. He's still young and if unchecked the behaviour may escalate. Yep, get some help in controlling this. Personally I'd be very unimpressed with being lept on and shagged by any dog.

Skuzy: I don't consider any humping to be "play". It's either sexually or dominance driven and neither of those is acceptable behaviour in a dog. Personally I'd be seeking the assistance of an experienced professional dog behaviouralist. Sounds like you may have some leadership issues with this dog. Get some help before the behaviour becomes any more developed. Edited for sense!