poodlefan

Arrogance?? Irrelevance? (to the cat) Cat's aren't as social as dogs. It's difficult to categorise their relationship with us as much more than opportunistic IMO.

And from an evolutionary perspective, good survival attributes.

Any dog behaviour that isn't aimed at controlling others isn't dominance to me. I view dominance as a result, not an intent. When two creatures compete for resources or have competing demands, the animal that succeeeds in getting its needs/wants met is the dominant of the two. There may be no confrontation or direct competition. Dominant males mate more, dominant predators are more successful hunters, dominant species are those who compete more successfully in a particular environment. It's not about intent or politics. So, when a dog and a handler go wandering off with the lead between them, the individual that dictates the pace and direction of the walk is the dominant one. I believe this can be situational but the motivation is having needs or wants met - over the needs or wants of others. The method of domination might be aggression, or strength or social manipulation We stuff it up by seeing dominance as some kind of threat to our egos and always deliberately intended. Yes, there are other reasons dogs to what they do but if they achieve their goals by ignoring or dismissing ours in the relationship, I would call that "dominant". Lack of training, lack of bonding, miscommunication, lack of undertanding are probably issues that need to be weeded out before the "dominance" word gets tossed around but in the end I'd call any that dog succeeds in routinely manipulating its owners to get what it wants (regardless of method) as "dominant". No doubt few will agree with this but the idea that the only dominant dogs are those that piss on your leg, tow you on lead and defend resources from you is too simplistic for me. The toenail analogy comes down to this. If you know how to clip your dogs nails, have spent time teaching your dog to tolerate it and still can't succeed, the dog's successful avoidance strategies are working. This doesn't mean the animal needs to be alpha rolled but somehow it needs to be taught that it must tolerate it. Often the people who do that are professional groomers or vet nurses who start a whole new relationship on different terms. The whole "never let your dog on the couch" idea is also far too simplistic for me. I leave it to Suzanne Clothier to put the couch into perspective. She says:

Corvus: Will every dog take try to take a bone from any other? It may seek to get the bone but many won't try to take it. Can you take something your dog prizes from it?

Well, that's a real discussion stopper.

Corvus: The dog is disinterested in your or has disregarded you.. either zero relationship or bugger all respect. If no training has ever been given, you may be right. However, most habitual lead pullers I know have had ineffective training or simply don't consider there is sufficient motivaton or consqequence to do other than what they wish to do. Foxhounds are sometimes trained by coupling a younger dog to an experienced hunter. The younger dog learns quite quickly that it goes where the older dog goes.. There is no "magic" in a good dog handler relationship. Generally there is effort - sometimes a lot of it. Have you asked anything of them? Are they placing their interests above yours? I think not. Same answer. They are free to do as they choose. They are not choosing to do what they want over what you want them to do. The difference is that on lead, the handler's wants come into play. You can't talk about dominance or submission until there is a relationship to discuss. In this case, that relationship has a physical link - the lead. If you want to talk about offleash training as opposed to free running then the difference is that without a leash the handler has no physical means of restraint - the relationship is all there is. Dominance isn't about the handler giving the dog free rein to do as it pleases. Dominance is about the dog choosing to place its interests above any demands the handler has.

I'll give you a very simple test of how much of a choice your dog thinks it has in life - clip its toenails. If your dog is older than 6 months and you still can't clip its toenails, who do you think is controlling that situation? I think dominance can be situational and dependent on distractions but I am constantly amazed by the number of people who cannot perform basic husbandry tasks for their dogs and its usually because the dog refuses to tolerate it. Dogs learn very quickly where the thresholds are for individual people in terms of how easily they will let the dog win. Vickie's example is a classic one. Forgot to answer this Corvus: Dominance serves to ensure you get what you want regardless of the wants of others. If you choose to disobey, you aren't recognising the role of that leader - you seek or assert dominance. Dominants lead, they are not led.

Vickie I do think the concept of dominance is over used - and usually as you suggest as a scapegoat for poor training techniques but there are dogs that very successfully manage their owners as you have explained. I recall Jan Fennell describing a powerful large dog in her book that she told its owners was extremely dominant. When questioned as to why a dog that had never displayed aggression could be such a thing she explained that he had carefully taught everyone else to give him exactly what he wanted. But dominant dogs are out there and, as you highlight, until you really thwart them, you don't know how strongly they will reassert what they believe to be their leadership.

*sigh* Since it has been suggested that much of these discussion is values based, why don't we start with a definition of "dominance". Quite simply, I believe "dominance" in the context we are talking is "the power to make decisions" I see it in terms of "leadership". If a dog takes the stance that it determines where and when it will go or when it will come then it is making those decisions. It's not necessarily plotting to rip its handlers throat out but its displaying its belief that it can do what it likes, when it likes. Dominance is not lnecessarily inked to aggression. Some of the most dominant dogs I know would be more aptly described as 'stubborn'. A dog that can quietly and cooly get what it wants is going to be far more successful than an aggressive one. True Alphas are rarely aggressive. I'm not talking about inadequate training here, even if people do want to use dominance for an excuse. If a dog knows what "come" is and can do it without distraction then when it gives you the finger and does its own thing, the distraction is not the primary issue. The issue to me is that the dog thinks it has a choice and it exercises it. Some dogs are naturally more dominant than others. Others have learned that no negative consequences come from disobeying cues or that no positive consequences come from obeying. The result is a dog that blows you off and does what it likes. Example, dog is wandering towards item of interest. You call, dog looks at you and then turns and goes the way that interests it. I don't tend to talk much about "dominance" but more about respect. It is possible that you may not realise you have a dominant dog if you never insist it does something it doesn't want to do. Does that help explain my position?

Smaller dogs simply can't single step 60cm weave gaps. I think weaver accuracy has more to do with training than weave style.

How big is he? Many smaller dogs use the double pump style because they aren't big enough to single step. I prefer to use guides for training smaller dogs. How fast you get them off determines how fast you progress.

I do all same side handling unless I need to change sides for the next obstacle. Last method is mine but I just bring the arm in rather than turn. Blind cross handling.. Methinks that dog was getting the weeniest bit patterned on that serpentive. :rolleyes:

Reverse front or flow pivot. I turn the outside shoulder in towards the dog and bring that arm in low. I face down the line of flow and [in theory] keep moving. To get the dog over jump three in the serp I open the inside shoulder and just point at it. Clear as mud in a written description ain't it.

I use the arm closest to my dog to handle a serpentine and RFP's to get a threadle. I have no idea whose system that is. I use the KISS system cos anything else will either make me get lost or fall over. :rolleyes:

Corvus: It's about who's in charge. The leader determines where you go. If you get to pull your handler whereever you want to go, who do you think is in charge? To some dogs a human is simply a brake that slows their travels. I see dogs like that progress round my suburb every day. Corvus I really think you need to meet more dogs. I'm sure as a zoologist you'd never make conclusions about species behaviour based on one or two individuals would you? The fact that you have a dog that clearly doesn't challenge you daily doesn't give you a wide enough range of experience to make generalised comments IMO. Some of your "observations" about dogs unlike your own can border on offensive to people who face considerable issues with their dogs every day. Go and walk some pound dogs. Once you've dealt with half a dozen or so 20-30 kg dogs who are prepared to hunker down and mush to haul their handlers where ever they feel like exploring, you'll have more basis to discuss how such dogs view the human at the end of the lead. To many such dogs, the human is at best irrelevant or a hindrance to their goals. They don't care about the other end of the lead because they've never been given motivation to or their drives overpower them.

That was one thing I noticed comparing the North American and European handlers at the worlds - the North American handling was a lot more complicated.. got the job done but they seemed to be working a lot harder.

One of the World Championship DVDs morphs the 1st and 2nd place runners runs onto the same screen - fascinating to watch how handling decisions and equipment execution can make or lose time.

Have you got good fencing? Is there an area of the yard you could fence off for him? I think he'd be far better off outside. A growing Lab pup loose in your house is not a good idea in terms of the damage he could inflict by chewing etc. Is there someone who could stop by and check on him during the day?

Back on topic: Best piece of advice I ever got on serps and threadles was to stop seeing them as curves and try to picture them as straight lines. It sure does tighten up your handling.

not everyone Leopuppy, as with everything, it is the loud ones you notice who give the others a bad name. Its my observation that those who give unsolicited advice would be the most loathe to have it given to them. I have had a quiet conversation with someone who gave a loud running critique of my run to her mate while I was in the ring doing it. I just asked how that person would have felt if someone had done it to her. It's never happened again. Of course if the critique had been highly flattering, I probably wouldn't have said anything

What games does your dog enjoy playing? What motivates him? One of my dogs would no more fly to the moon than play tug with me - she's too submissive. But she'll do anything for food. Try a range of games, balls, food tubes etc. Then watch your dog to see what he enjoys most. It's not a reward if your dog doesn't find it really rewarding!

Really? Is that how you felt as someone who didn't attend? Have attendees of Ronda's seminars over the last 2 years interfered with/commented on your handling decisions. Maybe I need to take my blinkers off. I've sat in Pat Parelli seminars listening to him telling folk why other trainers are useless. Just a general observation on some returnees from seminars Vickie. I didn't have anyone in particular in mind. There is a definitely a flavour of the month factor in agility. If a trainer has an ego, that doesn't mean their methods are better or worse. I probably just means I won't like them much as a person. My view is most good trainers are happy to be judged on their results and let their achievements speak for themselves. There are exceptions and frankly most of them are male. At trials I don't allow people to interfere with my handling decisions and I ignore unsolicited comments. I go out there with a plan and I try to achieve it. I don't need someone telling me I stuffed up or should have done it differently. I tune them out or walk away. I'm too small fry for people to worry about anyway. I don't know about you but I don't need someone to tell me when I get it wrong.. it's pretty damn obvious!

Vickie: Don't worry Vickie, it will only last until the Rhonda Carter seminars are held.. then that will be flavour of the month. All teachers can attract fanatics but yes, the cult like behaviour is annoying. Happens in the horse world too. There are people around who'll tell you that Pat Parelli is the only person who really knows how to connect with train and train a horse. I'm sure there are plenty of Olympians and International competition winners snorting into their weeties at that thought. I'm sure the people he got most of his ideas from just smile wryly. My personal view is that everyone has something to teach but you've got to use what works for you and your dog. Consistency IS important but it's nice to have plenty of tools in your tool box. People who are secure in their knowledge that they've got a system that works for them don't need to rubbish other systems/trainers.

The last person I know who tried something similar got 20 stitches and taught her dog that biting makes him win. Meeting aggression with aggression doesn't always make the human the winner APBT. What happens when another person approaches that dog with a bone?

The best advice I can give (other than seeking professional help) is to deal with the dog you see in front of you, not the dog you imagine her to be. What you think is abuse may be no more than extreme lack of socialisation/timidity. Strong startle reflexes and submissive wetting don't necessarily stem from mistreatment. Treat her as a puppy for toilet training and as a half wild animal for everything else. In addition to training, she needs "taming" as human interaction would be fairly intimidating for her. So, let her seek the contact and don't put pressure on her. I don't think this is attention seeking, just puppy like behaviour from a dog that's never been trained to behave differently. In many ways you have an adult dog with a pup's level of experience in normal family life - that is, very little. Explain it to your housemates. Explain that the fastest way for this girl to gain confidence is for people to never be any more negative than neutral. Praise all desireable behaviour, ignore and manage the rest. And think hard about doing some formal training with this girl (any kind) to build a relationship of trust and respect between you. Good luck!