poodlefan

We both get each others point of view but we disagree, that's normal. I see the Open shows and Member's Comps the place for Newbies, even to a lesser extent training classes. If they don't have the balls for the conformation ring then don't step into it. At the end of the day the Neuter Class and Title is incorporated into the Conformation ring, it is not separated like a sweepstakes class or alike. It is a class within normal conformation so I do think that it should be treated the same. In the trial ring, a club up here suggested a "Not For Competition" class. I can't really go into it too much at the moment but this is basically a separate discipline to give a newbie the chance to enter in trial conditions without actually competing, without a winner etc. Very similar to an open show in terms of less pressure and a more learning environment. Is this where we start the scratching and hair pulling?

slk: If he's extending the lead, he's pulling - you have to put pressure on it to do that.

I'd like their competition to be numerous but to be people like themselves with dogs like theirs Warls.. and if you put handlers with years of experience and well performed dogs against novice handlers new to the ring with an inexperienced dog, those classes IMO will never grow. You can learn just as much without being seriously outgunned. You don't expect people in other sports to learn or remain motivated by repeatedly pitting them against the current stars. I don't see any real spirit of competition in denying inexperienced dogs and handlers out a real chance of winning. Maybe I'm being somewhat patronising to potential entrants but if I'd been encouraged by my breeder to give showing a go and rolled up to find my neutered dog beaten by a Royal or BISS winnner, I'd be wondering why I bothered. There is no motivation to be found in one sided competition if you're the one on the losing side.

That they get experience competing against other dogs? The chance to beat an established show dog and handler? They learn ring craft with other dogs in their ring. They have someone in the same class which gives them a good person to ask questions of. No dog is unbeatable. Hardly a level playing field though is it? And the conformation ring is? No it isn't. Statistically, the "no dog is unbeatable" line doesn't play out there either. But if you want to play with the big kids that's where you go. That's where I am and that's where I'm staying. But you're suggesting that both rings should be the same except for parts of the dog's anatomy. I'm suggesting that first time exhibitors shouldn't have to front up with their dogs and be pitted against the equivalent of Michael Schumacher in last year's F1. How is that supposed to be encouraging to people on their L plates? If that's what we do to them, they won't be there for long. Do you really think we should go through all the trouble of creating classes neuter entrants so that existing exhibitors have more classes to enter their experienced and titled ex show dogs?

That they get experience competing against other dogs? The chance to beat an established show dog and handler? They learn ring craft with other dogs in their ring. They have someone in the same class which gives them a good person to ask questions of. No dog is unbeatable. Hardly a level playing field though is it? What I don't get is what an experienced handler with a Gr CH gains from the experience of denying the others any real chance of a prize.

Perhaps those who would do this should first ask themselves what it will mean for owners of pedigreed dogs who are encouraged to try showing and who enter the same class only to find it being shown against their dogs by an experienced handler?

Have a really good think about this if you're contemplating attaching one to a head halter (as I frequently see ) Well said, pf. My pet hate. Each of those pieces of equipment should come with a big letter warning that they are not to be used with the other IMO. So much risk of major injury. The other thing I don't like about retractables is that you can't get the same feel from the handle as you do from a normal lead - and you can't do the fingertip 'power-steering' thing - remember Suzanne Clothier talking about that. Yup. Gee that was a good seminar.

Have a really good think about this if you're contemplating attaching one to a head halter (as I frequently see )

The thing is, finding someone to mentor you right now is a matter of luck, not planning. We have no systems for identifying or assisting new adult handlers. The neuter championship would have been one. If you're lucky there might be some training in your area but I'd say that's fairly unusual. If you're lucky you find some friendly faces at your first shows but some people arent'. A program could have been developed around the neuter championship. Can you imagine for example how useful it would be if the neuter judges provided feedback on handling? We rely on our fellow competitors for that now. What this sport needs to thrive is exactly what other sports have - induction, training and reward systems for new particpants. We have nothing formal at all UNLESS you are a junior handler. My guess is we'll continue to reap the outcome of that for years to come. I see the current attitude towards the N Ch of "there's a prize so I'll be chasing it" from those with titled dogs as an opportunity squandered. As far as I'm concerned the only way a GR CH should find its way into any classes other than normal conformation ones at a show is attached to a junior or new adult handler.

I've chosen to show and I'll continue on because I don't give up easily. I was warned I'd chosen a difficult breed for competion and I accept that. Most of the time I enjoy it. But personally Megz, between spoon feeding newbs and cold shouldering them, I think there is scope to provide a slightly softer landing into the world of purebred dog exhibition than newcomers currently experience. The neuter classes were one possiblity but it is clear that experienced exhibitor attitudes will slam the door shut on that. But it could be better than this Megz. We could have a system where people were encouraged to try the sport without having to keep a dog entire and it wasn't simply survival of the fittest. I'm not for a moment suggesting that we need to lay out red carpets strewn with flower petals but if we want the sport to thrive then there need to be changes made get the numbers up. You clearly show in quite a different scene to me. Locally and within my Group ring there are quite a few exhibitors that are fairly new to the sport and whose company makes showing very pleasureable. They neither ask for, nor receive quarter in the ring from more experienced exhibitors. There are some more experienced exhbitors who have fallen over themselves to assist and then there are the others. I'm not leaving but I've seen the numbers of people who've attended handling classes, done a handful of shows and faded away. They weren't wimps, they just didn't find it rewarding enough to continue. Is that what the sport needs to thrive? Would it kill people to see some restricted competition where new people aren't expected to compete with those that have been in the game for life? It continues to gobsmack me that show folk are happy to provide this valuable experience for their own children but cannot see any reason to duplicate that for adults who are newcomers outside their ranks. Whilst ever the "sink or swim" attitude prevails, expect to see numbers decline.

Think of it as being clear and consistent. Set the ground rules and you and Poppy will be happier for it.

Yep, that's what I'd be doing.

Yes, she needs to be fully vaccinated. I'd be waiting until she's older anyway.. a pup can trigger prey drive in a larger dog. A small pup bullied and roughed up by larger dogs is not what you want.

And its the fact that some people have been around the sport since infancy that contributes to putting others off trying it. It's bloody hard sometimes to maintain your motivation when you are consistently outhandled by people to whom exhibiting a dog comes as naturally as breathing (and who make sure to let you know that) and who all seem to know each other. Thank God I'm bloody pigheaded and that I get support from other relative newcomers. It's all very well to say that a Newbie shouldn't be worried about points but what's the motivation for the owner of a well bred pedigree dog to "give it a go"? If you're asking people to spend time and effort conditioning, grooming, training etc, there has to be a pay off. A "entry level" class is one very easy way to give it but that clearly won't be happening now. In order to get people to try something you have to tick the "whats in it for me box". God knows with the closed shop attitudes some exhibitors display, it's amazing most newbs without support from within the sport continue on at all. Try marketing anything that requires a lot of commitment and then ensuring that new participants are effectively shut out of the reward system. We don't ask newcomers to compete for any prizes with the top level competitors in many other sports. People who've been on the inside for years either can't see the issue or don't give a damn. I had to laugh at the discusson on Ozhow the other day from long time exhibitors who consider themselves the "elder statesmen" of the sport complaining about the attitudes of newcomers . Knowing that some of them haven't lifted a finger in years to assist a newcomer makes that a bit hard to stomach.

They didn't have any.

I doubt it's the chicken loosening him. Time to experiment. Feed him the kibble on its own for a day or two and the same with chicken necks (wings are good too) on its own. Observe the results in the back yard. You'll soon figure out what's making his poo runny - and my money is on the kibble. This is a dog forum - we can talk about poo all day... even eating lunch which is what I'm doing. If you feel he needs more condition then feed a higher fat food (dogs get their energy mainly from fat not carbs), feed him more and/or feed him more often. How many meals a day is he getting?

I don't think that ever stops.

How exactly do they propose you stop her going to the loo - with a cork?? Or are continued accidents inside an acceptable part of this program? Put the crate in the ensuite.. put her bed or bedding in it and leave the door of the crate open. Toss in a treat at bedtime and my guess is she'll solve that problem for you. I find having a crate where you are, but leaving the door open, feeding etc in it will encourage use. Just buy one that's easy to move around the house initially. But she will still have free range of the house then? She will be free to get up, walk out, go wonder, pee/poo as she pleases... OR am I still putting someone across the doorway of the ensuite WITH the crate in there? Does the ensuite have a door?

Australia Post here I come

Put the crate in the ensuite.. put her bed or bedding in it and leave the door of the crate open. Toss in a treat at bedtime and my guess is she'll solve that problem for you. I find having a crate where you are, but leaving the door open, feeding etc in it will encourage use. Just buy one that's easy to move around the house initially.

No points = no payoff. That was the problem with neuter showing until now. If people don't give a rats about getting new folk into the sport then things can continue on as usual. However, I'm tired of listening to people whine about declining numbers while simultaneously they do nothing to encourage new exhibitors. Don't even get me started on breeders that won't sell to show homes and won't allow their dogs to be used at stud outside their kennels. That's really driving the sport towards extinction.

How exactly do they propose you stop her going to the loo - with a cork?? Or are continued accidents inside an acceptable part of this program?

No, you are not. Other people are expected to keep their dogs under control. The issue with your dog being on lead can change the dynamic, but that generally affects YOUR dogs behaviour more than others. If you don't have effective control over him yet, you are doing the right thing.

Dogs are social animals - the pack sleeps together. Having your dog sleep in the same room as you is an appropriate thing to do IMO. Problem with pens as I see them is that many dogs can climb out of them and therefore they aren't really safe to leave a dog in unsupervised for any length of time. A pen also provides space for a pup to eliminate away from where it eats and sleeps. That won't help with toilet training. You could always buy a crate and sell the pen to offset your costs. A good crate can be used when you travel, for trips to the vet, in the car etc.. a pen can't. For a dog of Poppy's size, I'd suggest an airline approved crate like a Vari Kennel or similar. Not cheap but will last forever. You can get PP 40's for a good price.

Bear in mind that it's American and they tend to have their dogs crated a lot more than we do. I'd never support leaving a dog crated without a break while I'm at work but I don't have 10 feet of snow, bears, alligators, cougars or coyotes in my back yard either. I still feed Howard in his crate and use it to teach "wait" and "go". He has to sit and wait to enter and leave.. a useful exercise in self control. Susan Garrett's "crate games" is a good book if you'd like to use the crate to teach some skills to the dog.