poodlefan

[quote name='oakway' timestamp='1313623565' post='5454331'I was trying to be polite and not enrage the owners of the breed and start another us verses them discussion over Pit Bulls.

If you want it in cold hard words here it is.

Always remember you are dealing with the Australian Public not the Dog World. {/quote]

If something is not done to curtail this type of event ever happening again, I can see in the near future a TOTAL ban Australia wide on the breed. I believe it could include total eradication.

This ban may never come from me or you (dog people in general) but will come from the Australian public.

Please remember I have not denegrated the breed in any way what so ever. I am only relaying what the average Australian is saying.

I think the Australian Public deserves to know that these kinds of incidents are largely predictable and largely preventable. Their best interests are not served by suggesting that certain kinds of dogs are inherently dangerous because the corollory to that is the suggestion that certain breeds of dogs are inherently "safe".

And if we cannot rely on journo's to report factually and to talk to experts in this area (and we can't) then its up to "dog people" to at least try to inject some facts into this hysteria.

Like it or not statistically the greatest risk to any child comes from the dog they live with. This is a terrible and tragic incident but statistically it is uncommon and when you write it off to "that dreadful breed" you put thousands of kids in harms way.

Educate, educate, educate. And throw the book at any dog owner that fails to raise or manage a dog to prevent it becoming a danger to society.

Anyone who doubts that is can work should Google "Calgary" and "pitbull"... the results speak for themselves.

Would have education have helped?

There are groups in society that still street race, regardless of the strong message that it is unsafe plus with the impounding/ confiscation laws.

Some like the fact that they live on the edge, be it legally or safely.

And some lose their cars if they break the law.

If you tell me this dog was unknown to council, I'll be surprised. But when we write off the attack due to breed, what's to stop this owner from getting another dog.

And how did the fact the breed was already banned stop this from happening. It didn't. It probably just ensured that this dog didn't get the kind of socialisation that well raised family pets do.

Bring on licensing for owners, not dogs.

Unfortunately this type of attack is becoming more frequent in Australia and many of these attacks are of the Pit Bull type.

Now wheather these are Pit Bulls, direct crosses or lesser dirivitives of the breed it always seems to lead back to the Pit Bull.

Now this is anobservation only, we can have dog attacks, but it is becoming more apparent that with this type of dog, the attacks are becoming more frequent.

I have always said that WE have owner problems NOT dog problems, but with this type of dog that been bred specifically for fighting, we may just have an animal that maybe predisposed to attack when not under full control.

I can see in the not to far future that a call will be made to ban any dog with a Pit Bull heritage.

The call has already been made. The dogs are banned in most States and all that's done is make them attractive to the kind of knobs who think owning a dog most people are frightened off is "fully sic mate".

Profle the owners and the way they raise their dogs folks.... you'll find the owners have far more in common than the breeds of dogs involved in fatal attacks of this kind.

I'm not oblivious to the fact that powerful dogs with low triggers to aggression and low bite inhibition present more of a risk to the community than some others. But that alone does not equal a child killer. You have to look at the combination of genetics, socialisation and experience to find out what makes a killer dog.

Rep, I will lay you odds this dog was young, male, intact, poorly trained, not well socialised, possibly aquired for status or 'protection' purposes and with a history of aggression. If you told me it was kept chained I'd be unsurprised.

But "pitbull" is a lot more attractive to journo's. It's the "great white shark" factor of the name that will be guaranteed to set pulses racing and sell advertising on TV and in newspapers. Hysteria makes ratings and sells column inches folks. Your average journo has a vested interest in fanning the flames.

Lets hear about the OWNER of the dog shall we? Lets hear how it was acquired raised and cared for. And let's wait for the owner to lie his or her arse off to protect themselves. I can hear it now "he'd never done anything like this before".

The dog was probably the terror of the street.

But don't you think there is something wrong when a breed has to be 'kept' in a certain way? Muzzled etc?

Yes, I think it wrong that society is ascribing responsibility for the dog's behaviour to the wrong end of the leash.

Not every individual in any breed "needs" to be kept in such a manner Ceilidh.

I would urge anyone who has pro breed ban views about dogs to read Karen Delise's excellent book Fatal Dog Attacks. Even a cursory browse will educate you that dangerous dogs are MADE, not born and that failure to train, failure to socialise and failure to manage are at the root of each and every one of these tragedies. Failure to supervise children is another very common factor but not in this case it seems.

As the breed is actually three breeds ranging in size from about 9 inches to 28 inches at the shoulder, you'll need to be a bit specific.

Toy, Miniature or Standard Poodle?

Please, pretty please won't someone

TELL US ABOUT THE BACKGROUND OF THE DOG

WHY can't journo's and others realise that ascribing attacks to "pitbulls" is about as useful as ascribing assaults to "male white caucasians".

Such dogs have a profile. Learn the profile, learn the warning signs and these utter tragedies can be prevented.

Please DOLers lets not see this thread degenerate into another "pro v anti ABPT debacle". All you do is fuel the myth that breed alone can explain why these things may or may not happen.

yer but it was via my email not pm on here but that could make it only a few people as i have only given out my email to a few people

Totally unacceptable to send such a message - but sadly that seems to be the form for some forum members.

And once again, an inappropriate over reaction to a situation. Two 'wrongs' don't make a right.

I do say but I have had enough so many people say it try don't use any tact at all thy could say " how old is the little one" and go from there start a friendly conversation but no its " hey you? Is he vaccinated" I just find it so rude? That why I lost it was sick of being polite to thos rude people who really had not right to ask that?

If you have issues with people being rude, why do you think a very rude response is OK?

Sorry but I think you're over reacting. They are concerned about your puppy, even if you think they should mind their own business.

I would be thinking that the beach is probably one of the safest places to socialise a puppy and walk it.

Are you serious...

In terms of disease risk, I agree with RSG.

So get a dog that has a pretty colour . Joking!

damn I wish I had read this before I got my new pup . Maybe it's true My 2 pretty colored dogs have been much easier to live with than my 5 common colored dogs. No wonder people charge and pay more for pretty colours!!! And all this time I have judged people for it.

You have a new pup???

Woi wasnt' I told??

Ummm - over reaction?

Why don't you just answer "yes, he is, thanks for your concern"?

What a lot of people do is they make concessions at the wrong places in clumsy attempts at diplomacy. I think that either this is true of Delucchi as well, or he really believes what he has said. Either way, his capacity as a spokesperson for the breed leaves something to be desired.

Personally I think he's paying service to the old "locking jaw" myth.

If the dog has to be physical to "sort out" the pups, I'd argue its alpha status.

True alphas can usually control pups with a look or some body language. My old poodle boy can usually accomplish this with no more than a frosty stare at even large pups that think he looks like a greying squeaky toy.

A dog that has to growl and deck more than once probably doesn't have what it takes in the alpha department.

RSPCA ACT chief executive officer Michael Linke said it was ''totally inappropriate'' for a pound to be releasing dogs into an environment where they could be hurt or killed.

''We would hope that the pound and the Government immediately review its policy on this, and bring it into line with the RSPCA policy,'' Mr Linke said.

''We won't home dogs into police combat situations, or military combat situations or bomb detector [roles]. We don't believe that governments and pounds should be doing that either.''

On the other hand, killing them because they are far too high drive for your average pet home is OK? :rolleyes:

These dogs have been surrendered because families can't cope.. what other options are there.

I think the RSPCA is seriously out of step on this one. Lets see them shut down puppy farms and the live sheep and cattle trades - now THOSE are real animal welfare issue.

Choose a breed or dog you want to live with.

If (as has happened to me) the dog cannot do the sports you wish to do, you'll still be happy with your choice.

Given all of that, some dog will make better agility prospects than others. Any breeds interest you more than others?

Howie doesn't like ceiling fans...

Ted my oldest boy has developed a fear of my sewing box (yeah, old dogs are "special")

For both I'm doing slow desensitisation and not making a fuss.

area.

Early days so far and we realise that that we need to intensively train these boys but they get on with each other and us very well and there are no signs of any issues.

Glad things are going well. Be extra vigilant as they approach sexual maturity - if you're going to see issues, odds are it's then that they'll start.

Will probably get the boys desexed at 6 months. We are keeping out a vigilant eye on them in this area. They wrestle and mouth each other when playing but there has been no signs of any aggression so far.

Six months is pretty young for a large gundog.

Hi,

I am the lucky new owner of a stunning english staffy pup with fantatsic bloodlines that i would like to show. The only problem is i don't know where to start. Is there any particular training that is needed and what do you do exactly at a dog show? Also I live in the NT so can i compete interstate also or do you have a ranking system? Any and all information would be fantastic as i am very excited to start this learning process with my pup!

Does your dog have ANKC Main Register papers as a Staffordshire Bull Terrier?

If not, you won't be able to show him. If he does, his breeder is a good starting point for information and there is also a thread in this forum with lots of information for new exhibitors.

Are male young dogs more of a danger than other dogs? Is that because they are at an age where they are trying to assert themselves? And should owners of male dogs at that age be particularly cautious of their dogs?

Could a well-loved family pet turn on its owner so viciously that it ends up killing the person without any major trauma or provocation?

Statistically, yes. But that factor needs to be weighed in with a whole bunch of others. I've posted the following before:

I've posted this before but here's the science on what makes dogs dangerous:

Some questions to ponder.

1. Was this a "family" dog or a "resident" dog?

Quote from the USAs National Canine Research Council:

Dogs that have not been afforded the opportunity to socialize, interact and learn appropriate behaviors because they have been acquired for negative functions (guarding, fighting, breeding for financial gain) or maintained in semi-isolated conditions (chained, kenneled, basement/yard dogs) cannot be defined as "family dogs". These animals are "resident" dogs. Family dogs and resident dogs cannot be expected to exhibit similar behaviors under similar conditions.

2. How many factors of this attack fit those identified by Karen Delise in her book Fatal Dog Attacks?

Today's media is filled with sensational headlines of dog attacks. Routinely quoted in these newspaper accounts are dated statistics from the Centers for Disease Control. The last CDC study released documented which breeds of dogs caused the most human fatalities from 1979 through 1998. While the CDC did an admirable job of studying fatal dog attacks, and went to great lengths to point out that irresponsible owners were the cause of most of these incidents, the media and lawmakers continue to use CDC statistics to substantiate claims that certain breeds of dogs are inherently more "vicious" than other breeds.

After reviewing over 431 cases of fatal dog attacks it is apparent there is no single factor that translates in a lethal encounter between a person and a dog(s). A fatal dog attack is always the culmination of past and present events that include: inherited and learned behaviors, genetics, breeding, socialization, function of the dog, physical condition and size of the dog, reproductive status of dog, popularity of breed, individual temperament, environmental stresses, owner responsibility, victim behavior, victim size and physical condition, timing and misfortune.

While many circumstances may contribute to a fatal dog attack, the following three factors appear to play a critical role in the display of canine aggression towards humans;Function of the dog - (Includes: dogs acquired for fighting, guarding/protection or image enhancement)

Owner responsibility - (Includes: dogs allowed to roam loose, chained dogs, dogs and/or children left unsupervised, dogs permitted or encouraged to behave aggressively, animal neglect and/or abuse)

Reproductive status of dog - (Includes: unaltered males dogs, bitches with puppies, children coming between male dog and female dog in estrus)

It is necessary to emphasize that a fatal dog attack is an exceptionally rare event, yet many communities and cities believe that the solution to prevent severe and fatal dog attacks is to label, restrict or ban certain breeds of dogs as potentially dangerous. If the breed of dog was the primary or sole determining factor in a fatal dog attack, it would necessarily stand to reason that since there are literally millions of Rottweilers, Pit Bulls and German Shepherd Dogs in the United States, there would have to be countless more than an approximate 20-25 human fatalities per year. Since only an infinitesimal number of any breed is implicated in a human fatality, it is not only unreasonable to characterize this as a specific breed behavior by which judge an entire population of dogs, it also does little to prevent fatal or severe dog attacks as the real causes and events that contribute to a fatal attack are masked by the issue of breed and not seriously addressed.

From 1965 - 2001, there have been at least 36 different breeds/types of dog that have been involved in a fatal attack in the United States. (This number rises to at least 52 breeds/types when surveying fatal attacks worldwide). We are increasingly becoming a society that has less and less tolerance and understanding of natural canine behaviors. Breed specific behaviors that have been respected and selected for over the centuries are now often viewed as unnatural or dangerous. Dogs have throughout the centuries served as protectors and guardians of our property, possessions and families. Dogs have also been used for thousands of years to track, chase and hunt both large and small animals. These natural and selected-for canine behaviors seem to now eliciting fear, shock and a sense of distrust among many people.

There seems to be an ever growing expectation of a "behaviorally homogenized" dog - "Benji" in the shape of a Rottweiler. Breeds of dogs with greater protection instincts or an elevated prey-drive are often unfairly viewed as "aggressive or dangerous". No breed of dog is inherently vicious, as all breeds of dogs were created and are maintained exclusively to serve and co-exist with humans. [The problem exists not within the breed of dog, but rather within the owners that fail to control, supervise, maintain and properly train the breed of dog they choose to keep.

Any dog, regardless of breed, is only as dangerous as his/her owner allows it to be.

area.

Early days so far and we realise that that we need to intensively train these boys but they get on with each other and us very well and there are no signs of any issues.

Glad things are going well. Be extra vigilant as they approach sexual maturity - if you're going to see issues, odds are it's then that they'll start.

What do you mean poodlefan? are you talking about the female who was found cowering In a corner?

I'm talking about learning from this incident and educating people about any identifiable indicators that this could potentially happen.

And I'm willing to bet they were there.

RSG's identified two - young dog, reaching maturity and male. There's a whole list of others. I'd want to know about the wife's relationship with this dog in detail.

I genuinely hope a researcher talks to the husband about his dog, his wife and what happened.

These things don't generally come out of nowhere. The dynamics of that pack deserve further study.

A second tragedy will occur if no one learns from this one.

Instead of puppies, with the right advice,training and suitable backup petshops could be used as one point of contact for putting people in contact with, and learning about available dogs in rescue.

I wonder when it will occur to folk that if dogs are responsibly bred, placed in the right homes and socialised and trained right, there won't be any dogs IN rescue.

If people want pups, and not adult dogs, responsible purebred breeders are IMO a better source than rescue.

Lopolla, what does your partner want to do with this dog?

Does he want an easily trained dog? Will it do a lot of off lead walking? How much exercise will it get?

What's his personality like? Is he a calm, unflappable kind of guy or will a dog that doesn't respond immediately to his cues make him frustrated or angry?