Sarah L

Hi Erny I would like to say firstly that I admire the professional way you are going about what you are trying to achieve. I have had a few thoughts while I have been reading this thread and wonder if you can give me your point of view on them. If you achieved your goal of making the use of prong collars legal to use in Victoria, then would this give rise to people using them in the wrong way and others who do use them correctly would have no recourse to implement their proper use as many people may just read the fitting instructions on the packet and away they go. No doubt whether they are banned or not we all know they are being used. But at least at the moment this may still be taught by someone who knows what they are doing. The fact that they are banned may discourage or not the idiots out there using them wrongly. Even if you got the use of them permissioned under the "restricted use law" could this still be just another loop hole for people to abuse. I know you and other trainers know how to use them properly and can instruct on how to do so, but I feel once you give free rain on some of these training tools then more often than not they will be abused by people who do not want to spend the money being taught on how to use them properly. We would have nothing to fall back on in cases of animal cruelty if they were to become legal. I hope you can see what I am trying to say and realise I am not attacking you. As I said I know you know how to use and instruct on how to use them properly and with the legal or restricted use law coming in you would be able to teach without repercussions, but I am just to worried that to many people would not take the time or spend the money to be taught. What do you think?

This all depends on how you train your dogs overall. There is nothing wrong with playing tug games with dogs. Once you have achieved good success with other toy play tug is just another game to the dog and does not encourage it to tug on stuff you do not want. So how do you know that getting a dog to chase a ball will not encourage it to chase things you do not want. Maybe you should ask Steve Austin about tug games I know for a fact he does this with his own dogs. Also plenty of other people know how to do this as well.

Hi Julie......... Can I ask if you try and play with the dogs, with their toys together or separately? If you do it when they are together then one could be putting the other off, eg... one wont allow the other to get it or one takes it and wont give it back in case the other gets it and so on. If this is the case teach them separately how to play with their toys and you. Put one somewhere where it cannot see you play with the other. Start by tying a ball or dumbbell like toy on the end of a longish piece of strong string tied to the end of a stick. Use this to snake it along the ground and see if this gets the dog interested in following it and wanting to put its paws on it to stop it. If this happens praise your dog and keep playing with it snaking it a long the ground praising your dog every time they follow and try to stop it. Then finish with a treat reward and swap dogs and do the same again. Once both your dogs are happy to do this then you can, start to pick the ball or dumbbell up still on the string and stick and roll it with your hands to the end of the length of string, when the dogs goes after it praise the dog and say the dogs name with the word come and when the dog comes back to you offer a treat reward for the toy and throw it again. Do this with each dog separately as well until you can take the toy of the string and stick and throw it freely. When you bring both dogs back together then you need 2 toys and throw them in the opposite direction to each other at the same time. Recalling your dogs with their name and the word come to bring the toy back. Give both dogs a treat reward at the same time for bringing there toys back and throw them again. Hope this helps you :rolleyes: Also tug of war with each dog separately would be a good game to start after they are used to the throwing of their toys has been trained. Hey just realised this is my 100drth post YEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi skuzy, I totally agree with all the other dol's. Do not send your dog to a training centre, I will guarantee you will regret it. A private trainer would be your best bet and you can see and be there for the training so nothing is hidden for you. Put it this way kennel cough would be the mineorist of problems your dog would possibly come back with and some other problems would not become apparent for a few years down the track.

Hi staceyb, get your trainer at puppy school to let one or two of the puppy's loose with yours to see how she goes. All of them at the one time is too overwhelming for your pup. It would be better for her to be taken gradually in playing with the other pups than put in amongst all of them at the one time and hoping she gets used to it. Also if she does go under the chairs to hide encourage her out with some treats as mentioned before. When all the pups are running loose let her sit and watch for a while so she can see they are having fun. Your trainer has to do this right or lasting damage can be done by just keeping putting her in with all the puppy's at the one time and hoping she gets used to it. It may have just been week 1 nerves and not being used to the number of pups there, but take week 2 slowly with her and build her up with 1 or 2 pups at a time and you will then find week 3 and 4 a lot easier

I am glad also that nothing showed up in the lad results. Novta can you please pm me with the kennel they spent overnight at. The reason I am asking this is even one bad night may be contributing to the problem. However the fact your other dog is sniffing her a lot may have another reason. Dogs may be able to detect a lot more than even the best educated human when it comes to ill health in their companions. Where is he sniffing, eg... around her vulva or another part of her body. Or does he start at her vulva and end up at another part of her body. It will also be very interesting to see how she goes in the new runs and with the camera when you are at work.

Hi Novta, How did you go at the vets with the lab results? I am eager to know. How was the second day at work with your girl? Gee I am just full of questions aren't I

Well I am glad her uti has not come back. Do you know what else the lab is testing for? Is she desexed? Can you take them every day for a while to see if she does start any of the behaviour in the ute? If the behaviour does not start in the ute then it must have something to do with the run or you leaving her alone at home. At least if you do take them to work it will give us longer to figure out what is causing the problem without any drugs or more injuries to her. When it stops raining here we will get the other runs up and I will try her in there to see what the behaviour is like. I'm away each day for about 5 hours. Used to work full time and be away about 8 hours and she was fine. I have been trying her on the natural 'Pet Calm' tablets but they don't seem to have much effect. Will try rescue remedy as well. Tapferhund you got me thinking. Novta I read back to your early posts and noticed you said the floor of the kennel was wooden. This may sound silly but you never know. What if since moving to your new property some kind of small animal has made a home under the wooden floor and initially your dog was trying to get to it. What was the wooden floor treated with if anything to seal it from the elements? If she did scrap at the floor and then licked her nail because it was broken then she may have ingested some of what it was sealed with. It may not have been enough to show any obvious poisoning or instant vomiting, but enough to affect the nervous system in some way. As I said it does sound silly but stranger things have happened. Are you still going to use the camera? hope the lab does not find anything serious.

Hi Kiwi73, Any of the two brands of dry dog food will be good for your puppy, it is up to your personal choice which one you use. If you are going to swap to Royal Canin then you will have to do this gradually and not just swap over from one to the other in one day. For training treats for a young 8 week old pup I would use some boiled chicken breast, chopped up into little bits to reward the pup for good behaviour. this is tasty to the pup but not to strong to upset his stomach. I am not sure about the goats milk, puppies do not need milk at this age although alot of people like to give there dogs milk it can give them the runs or even make them vomit. Maybe check this out with your vet to see what they say. Congratulations on your new pup have lots of fun and enjoy.

I have had some experience with Clomicam, when I worked as a vet nurse. In most cases it did not work, only in a small percentage of dogs with mild anxiety. Maybe other people on here will let you know there results with it. You can try some Bach Flower remedies, you can give dogs rescue remedy or have one specifically made up for the particular problem. There is a few animal naturopaths out there. Glad you are going to try the camera, looking forward to see what happens. I do hope her uti has not come back.

Put it this way ruthless, would you rather your dogs wee in your house because you and your other half think differently about what the other is doing. You know this will always be the case between you. Even if your dogs sleep in crates all night it would be better to bring the crates out of the bedroom while you are home and put them in the rooms you do use. It will not matter to the dog if it spends another 10 or mins in the crate while they cannot be supervised because you are doing a household chore and hubby's watching tv. You can still see the dogs and they can still see you, you can still talk to them if that's what you normally do. Put it this way it's not like their getting interaction from you at these times anyway. Or they would not wander down the hall for a wee in the first place. Make the crate a fun place to be at these times, give them a toy or a bone to keep them occupied while in there. I think ruthless it is your human guilt about using crates more so than it is the dogs response to being in one. I am sure there is a spray deterrent you can get, just can't think of the names of any. Maybe other people on here will now. However I do know 9 out of 10 times they are useless and a waste of money. Catching your dog a few minutes later won't work. Some people say when they have caught the dog in the act then correction works. This may work for some dogs it depends on the dog. Most times I have found it only makes the dog sneakier about where they wee and you don't find it so easily. Also if this happens it usually takes someone who does not live in your house to come in one day and say "what is that smell". There is a way but it takes a lot of time and patience and training to do this. Unless anyone on here knows a quick way to train a dog to wee in one spot of the garden. I would stick to solving the weeing inside the house first.

Good points Erny.... definitely sounds like anxiety based or health issue or even both. If the uti has returned then I had this thought to help the dog toilet in the run when novta was at work and to save the dog from holding on. Novta..... would providing a receptacle with the substrate that your dog normally wees on eg..... grass, help with her being able to toilet in the run. This will give an association that it is ok because it is normal for her and takes away from not toileting until she is on this surface. I don't mean just filling something with grass but actually using turf grass so it has the exact same sent of what she normally wees on. On the anxiety issue...... can you set up a video camera some where, to record both when you are there and when you are not. I am wondering if you have a neighbour problem who does not like dogs or are you near a school? where kids pass your property on the way home or is there any building work near your porperty? I am not sure of this as your other dog does not have the problem of anxiety I presume, either way the camera may help to provide some more answer's. This is all that springs to mind from me right now and it certainly is a puzzle, I need to think about it some more too.

Hi Rhi I am so thrilled to hear little jak in on the mend, you must be so relieved ;) I had a good laugh when you said she was back to being naughty. I am sure she will be getting up to alot more mischief as she does have lost time to make up for

Hi ruthless, I see from the pics you have 3 dogs, but it is only two that have the problem is this right? Have you ever used crates for your dogs? If you have not used crates then I would recommend learning to use crates for your new house. Many people on the forum, including myself have used them and all will be glad to give you advise on the correct crate training method for older dogs. This will give you peace of mind when you drop the ball and are unable to supervise the dogs inside the house. The day you move to your new house, then I know it will be hectic for you but they must be toileted well when they come from the vehicle before going into the house, only let them have a brief sniff around and put them out to toilet again the excitement of a new house will make them pee. If you choose not to use crates then you will have to put them out to toilet every hour for the first day or so. Or keep them under supervision and let them out more often. This won't help you when you are asleep though. You can also make them permanent out side dogs but if this is not what you want then crate training is a very good alternative. It does not mean however that dogs be left in crates all the time though. The crates will give you a few hours peace when you can't supervise them and then you let them out to toilet after being in the crate. Hope this was of help to you ;)

The main agenda of this thread is for people to comment on, have an opinion on, what they think or what they know about dog behaviour, and to examine why people get dogs and the relationship between the two. Without 1 line being latched onto turned into something it is not and then completely driven off course by the wrong understanding of what was being said. I hope this makes it more clear for you Erny.

Tony, I would like to say thanks for a great post. When I started this topic, what you have said is what I had at the back of my mind, I do feel the breeding standard of dogs today has declined dramatically, which was my point about do we have dogs today to impose upon them what we wish. I wish this could change but not sure it ever will. I feel their is one glamour of hope in this area and it lies with the breeding of dogs to be able detect, cancers, epilepsy, dogs for the blind which we know is vital to that person haveing quality of life, dogs for the disabled and deaf and so on. Because less people own farms today in which to utilise dogs in there livly hood, then this I feel would be a good alternative. There are so many areas today in which dogs are utilized in the professional services, search and rescue and so on just goes to show that they are still a vital part of our lives. Also the companion dogs who's owner do some sort of sport, eg... agility, tracking, game sports and so on, this may not be vital to their lively hood but it sure gives the dog a better standard of life. As far as breeding dogs for the show ring as an end to just simple breeding dogs to sell I have never seen the point in this. I do feel this has been detrimental to the standard of dogs, but this is just my opinion and I am sure plenty of people would disagree with I am not sure but we will never know if it was a simultaneous adoption, I think early man would have been to wary of other animals. As far as we know, firstly dogs scavenged the camps of the nomads as easy feeding. Then the nomads recognised the dogs hunting skill in being able to back track an animal that changed direction, this was something early man did not know how to do. I agree that from there on the formation of breeds further down the track. The sharing of shelters between man and dog I also think happened at a later stage, as early man became more comfortable with the dogs around it would have been a natural progression towards the dogs sharing mans shelter as the nomads would have recognised the dogs defending capabilities and so then allowed then to share shelter, this could have been the first early protection dogs so to speak. Never a truer word spoken. I am sure if a group of Humans from that early came for a Visit to modern Day Society they would shake their Heads and or grunt in dismay!!!!!They would be looking at some of the Dogs that are being bred today and wonder why the Hell!!!!I could imagine them thinking why would you breed Dogs that cannot Breathe,are not sound and could not survive without being propped up by Humans. I have a friend in her 70's who has worked with dogs all her life and she is continually saying what you have written We can only hope that this will one day change, and that people give back to the dog a purpose in its day to day life again.

oops may have done Rom. The two were right next to each other, never mind. I do agree with you that the wrong association to the lead is done more often than not. Your other thread totally confused me Blossom, haltie's can be used with some dogs, but it is another piece of equipment that emphasies's restrainment, but if other methods don't work then it is a good alternative to have.

I was talking to some friends the other day, who told me a story about what one of their dogs did one day. Firstly it had me :p What happened was my friends went out one day and were always leaving the back door open with the screen door shut but not locked. When they got back home and went outside to see the dogs, greeted them normally, but one of them sluncked away you know the way a dog does when someones says, (he/she knew they did wrong). Well my friend could not understand why the dog had done this. When they went back inside they noticed that the meat they had left to defrost on the kitchen bench for dinner that night was gone and the wrapping was no where to be found. They went back out side and looked everywhere. They found the wrapping hidden behind a bush in the garden The dog had opened the screen door gone in got the meat from the kitchen bench taken it out side, either eaten the meat and then put the wrapper behind the bush or eaten the meat behind the bush so no one could see. We will never really know which. My friends never used corrections with their dogs, which is why they did not understand the dogs sluncking away in the first place. This got me thinking was this purely a reactive mind or was there some reasoning on the dogs part to be able to do what it did. If it was purely reactive why did the dog not eat the meat and leave the wrapper on the kitchen floor. Either way I hope you all find this story as funny as I did. ;)

Rom, the above method I described in my first post does take the emphasis off the lead from the word go, irrespective of the weight the lead is. Also I have never seen a dogs lead that does weigh a great deal anyway, I suppose you could tie a couple of bricks to it, then take the bricks off and hope the dog understands the difference. But I would not recommend this. Also if the owner keeps the distance short as I explained for the first couple of days then this method instantly puts a new thought into the dogs head about how to walk. There are other steps to this method but I wanted to see how the dog responded first and also not to over whelm the owner with too much information, not to mention rushing through the steps. The lure method when done properly has no emphasis on equipment and everything on communication by the owner.

To make it easier on you I would teach your 11 month old separately from your 3 year old, when walking. This does mean for a short time your walks may be double eg.... one then the other, but it should only be for a short time then you can go back to walking them together. You can try the lure method when teaching heel. Get a bum bag and some yummy treats, try using some chicken or left over meat table scraps. Hold the lead in the opposite hand to the side your dog is on, put some treats in your hand nearest the dog, The idea is getting the dog to focus on the treats in your hand which you keep it close to the dogs nose and your hand by your side, as you are walking let the dog gentle nibble out some of the treats from your hand, do not withhold the treats till you stop and then reward, you are only rewarding the dog for stopping not walking. When you have run out of treats in your hand stop ask the dog to sit refill your hand, give the dog one bit for sitting and carry on with the luring. When you are doing this keep the distance short. In other words 3 or 4 houses down from yours and back, so that the dog does not have time to lose focus on what you are doing. Its better to practise this a couple of times a day than try and teach it all in a large distance. I also do this around the house but do not use any words so it makes it less formal. There is other steps to this method, but if you try this first and see how the dog responds, then the next steps can be given. the further steps lead to the dog only being rewarded every so often. It should only take a week and you will be able to walk both your dogs together again. This method also teaches the dog it is nicer to walk without being strangled on the end of the collar which they do when they pull. Hope this is of help to you

Hi Rhi, I am glad to hear she is no worse, but not glad to hear she is no better. These are my thoughts, did your vet test for coccidia, I am not a vet and not trying to contradict what he said but it does not make sense to me. I would think after a week even a burned esophagus would be getting better. Just how badly was it burned with the pain killers? If a dog can keep food down for a few hours and then vomit, to me it has nothing to do with the esophagus, and more so the stomach. Even although the dog may feel this in the esophagus it would try and retch straight after eating or even during not vomit up to 6 hours later. It seems to me it is when the food gets to the stomach that the problem is with. The yellow stuff you are talking about is bile and is produced from the stomach not the esophagus. Have you got a second opinion yet? I would certainly be doing this. If it has something to do with the stomach then the i/d diet may be too strong for her at the moment. I know this will not hurt her, but can you try 2 tablespoons of boiled chicken with one teaspoon of cottage cheese every 3 to 4 hours and see if she keeps this down. As always hoping she gets better soon. One other thing has she lost any more weight?

Kelpi-i Konrad Lorenz has a fantastic book called Man Meets Dog. He does discuss the the Jackal factor in this book. I have this book but have not read it for years, now because of this thread I must go look it out and re read it. ;)

oh Rhi I was hoping the next time I looked in here I would see that she made some improvement. Has she eaten anything else today if so has she kept it down. That would be a good sign. I think she should be on some sort of medication to help with the retching. I don't understand why your vet has not done this. If she will not eat the i/d diet then some plain boiled chicken a couple of tablespoons with a teaspoon of cottage cheese every 3 to 4 hours would be a good alternative. Also just incase don't give her any milk. Just thought I would mention this just incase you are. It definitely would not be good for her tummy. Did the vet ever show you her x-rays or just tell you about them. If you have not seen them ask to. Then let me know how many views they took. If she had a gastric torsion they would be getting you to rush her in I hope as dogs can die in a few hours when this happens. Hope all goes well tomorrow.

Hi Rhi, saw your last post, poor Jak we are all thinking of you both. What medication is she on and is she keeping food down. How is her fluid intake. I so hope she gets better soon.

I would like to say what a fab thread this has been, I have been reading with great interest. I have more questions than comments. Thanks to sardogs post I had been trying to remember the name of the man who had studied wolves in Canada which was answered for me. I had seen his series of docos on BBC2 back home in Scotland. I found his study very amazing indeed. He had a female assistant who noticed that the old school of thought on the male always being the 'Alpha" dog in wolf packs may not be quite true. Through further study Tom found she was right and this opened a new way of thinking on how pack behaviour worked. If memory serves me right they found that no matter how well the resource or hunting skills the male had it was the female that the survival of the pack depended on. With the females more complete skills in more areas of daily pack life this often outranked the males. Although the hierarchy was fluid at times ultimately the 'Alpha" was female more often than not. ok so the above was comments My questions are: How many of you that live the both male and female dogs would say the female is the leader of your dog pack? What affect if any has desexing affected the pack order of your dogs? I do have more questions but I am trying to think of the right way to word them first. I am curious as a comparison behaviour between pet dogs and wolves.