Sarah L

Firstly I would like to say to you Lou castle that dragging up such an old thread under the guise of an e collar success story was a very lame way to try and promote yourself. There was nothing in your links about the behaviours of those 2 dogs that other trainers have successfully treated and cured without the use of an e collar. poodlesplus I thought your post was very good on all counts. Everyone knows that even someone who thinks that they have taught the use of this tool properly cannot guarantee that it will be continued to be used properly by the average dog owner/layperson, and before we get into the old retort of any training tool can be used wrongly. I would just like to say that this is why a lot of trainers will not recommend tools that can be misused in the first place. I was speaking to a woman recently who attended a e collar training session with her dog. These are her words...... there were 8 or so people in the class and while the trainer had split the class in two and sent the first half off to practise while the other half were being shown what to do, there was one man in the class that just kept zapping his dog and the trainer did not see this because the trainer was dealing with the other half of the class. She told me she left the class and decided that this tool was not for her and that she did not want to use it. Lastly I have one question for all people who do use e collars if low level stimulation does not work to correct the dogs behaviour what is your next step.

Hi perrin Don't feel like an idiot accidents happen. He has had a bad scare from the experience. It not that he thinks you did it on purpose rather that it will happen again when you approach him. Look at what happened. You were on approach to him when you fell on him, you grabbed his collar to save him from running away. When you do these things now, like simply take hold of his collar to clip the lead on or approach him to give him a pat, it will bring back the memory of what happened and so the dog is anticipating the same thing to happen again. You can do some things to help him get over his scare and associating it to you. he may or may not also associate it to others that approach him now as well so it will be a good idea for all the family to try what I am about to recommend. Have to tried to play ball with him since? if so what has his reaction to it been? You may find he is not willing to do this either any more. You will now have 3 things to work on. Your approach to him, taking hold of his collar and ball play. When you approach him you need to give him a different association now so that he looks at it differently. You can try having a nice treat in your hand. Kneeling down as well may be a good idea for a little while. Hold your hand out and open so that he can see the treat, don't call him to you but let him approach for the treat and let him take it from your hand, give him another one straight away if he has not backed away from you. Don't try and pat him or talk to him when you are doing this. If he will not approach you in the first place for the treat lay a treat trail from him to you so he will follow it to you. When he is happy to do this and shows no signs of backing away from you you can then do the approach to him with the treat in your hand to give to him when you get to him. When you want to touch his collar use food reward again, this time treat in one hand and with both hands at the same time hold them out give the treat to him and touch his collar only not to take hold of it do this a couple of times before clipping the lead on and also practice this when without the lead just giving treat and touching collar. Until he show no signs of cringing from you. Again do not talk to the dog or try and pat him when you are doing this. When playing ball just roll the ball along the ground to see if he will go after it if he does throw him a reward for going to get it. If he will not bring it back to you again leave a treat trail for him to follow into you. with or without the ball. When he gets to you reward him with a treat and go and get the ball and do the same thing again. Do this in the back garden or in the house until he is confident with you again, incase he gets scred in the park and runs away. He will soon get his confidence back with you when you show him that the scare he got is not always going to happen when you approach, take his collar or play ball. Hope this helps you :rolleyes:

Hi Novta Did she start the destructive behaviour last night while still in her run or just whined and paced or barked? Do any branches of the tress come down when it is windy? Maybe some fell on her run before and gave her a scare. I do think it is a good idea if possible to make the runs a bit more wind proof. Have I got this right.... she is ok with the wind during the day but not a night? Can you post us a pic of the runs where they are positioned and so we can see what they look like. You could try leaving a radio on in her run at night to distract her from the noise of the wind, one of those little battery operated ones and put it some where she can not reach it. You do not have to have it up loud but as some background noise she can become familiar with. This has worked for some dogs.

Your last paragraph above I totally disagree with. Just ask any other people on this forum who have multiple dog households. This way of thinking is now rapidly becoming out dated. Dogs do not end up in pounds because people put to much human emotion into dogs its the lack of human emotions that puts dogs in pounds. ARF Muttly do you take into consideration the age of the dog you are fostering, the reason for the issue? or do you just go straight ahead in dealing with what you think the issue is? How many dogs do you foster at the one time? and do you deal with every foster dogs issue's with the same training program? I am no stranger to working with pound dogs. I always treat every dog as an individual and not with a general consensus of how it is thought a dogs behaviour should be. More so what it is capable of.

Hi Erny, I decided not to bother with the quote marks, I know what you mean by having trouble with them they gave me the poops last night. I think both of our second posts to each other explained alot more than our first ones did if you had of given the example of the little dog in your first post then I would have totally agreed with you. I thought you meant the people who had posted before us on what they did with their dogs. My mistake. I do have a second thought as well now that you have explained it. Which is...... how do we really know the dog is unhappy when displaying this behaviour. This is not as silly as it sounds as you said the dog gets shown affection/approval for this behaviour. I have often wondered if what we see in some dogs is the correct perception of what they are actually feeling. Unless we can put them through some sort of physical testing at this time to find out or they could talk and tells us do we really know? because of what we know of how a dogs memory works, if it is unhappy at these times then at least because they live in the now it's not as if it's going to remember it was unhappy at this time for the rest of its day or week until it happens again. Hope this last part made sense The to many limitations I was talking about have come through clients I have had who had a bad trainer come to their house and gave them the following recommendations on how to assert pack leadership. The following examples are in brief description but you will get the idea. (1) Do not pat the dog at any time (until it has learned to behave) (2) Take all its toys away and do not give it any (until it has learned to behave) (3) Tie the dog up when it gets to excited (until it learns to behave) (4) Take its food away after 15 mins if it has not eaten and only feed dry dog food. (5) Do not allow the dog on the couch, on the bed etc..... (6) spray it with water. (7) throw a chain at it. This was to be done to the dog every day. Now.... the above done on such frequency will make the dog unhappy and also make it remember it is unhappy on a daily basis. By the time I got to these clients both the dogs and owners were very unhappy. They thought they were being given the right information so tried to follow what they had been told. However every single owner told me this was not what they wanted to do to their dogs so paid the trainer lip service on the second visit. They had already given up on the dog and themselves of ever being able to fix their problems by the end of their first weeks attempt at the training program. I wonder how many other trainers just get paid lip service by clients who blame them selves for failing at a bad training program in the first place. I think the main things trainers forget is that the average pet dog owner does not want to delve into the deep meaningful philosophy of dog behaviour and we cannot expect them to learn our grasp of what the dog ideally needs in 2 lessons or so that has taken us 20 odd years to gain learning and experience in. I never have and never will recommend the above examples I have given to and owner whether they are naturally assertive or not. This is also what I meant by forcing someone to do something they did not want to do. There are other ways to show a dog leadership. Hey Erny I think you and I should write a book, we would have it written in 2 days. But it might take us a year on agreeing what to put in it

Erny..... Or it could be the owner chose the right breed of dog to suit their lifestyle and living arrangements. For people who are not naturally assertive Erny then it could take longer to teach them how to be and probably longer than what the dog would be alive for. Human nature is far harder to change as we both know. Many good trainers have learned to work around this than force someone to do something they are not capable of. Erny..... The reason the word dominance is now a dirty word is because it was miss labeled and came with training programs that put too many control freak issues into dogs behaviour that was not there in the first place and caused many dogs as I have said to challenge owners through these limitations on their behaviour. The example I gave was undesexed male dogs around 9 to 12 months who's natural physical development at this time causes the dog to have high energy, which is often not given an out let for but under dominance theory has more limitations put upon it. Lack of focus and high excitability and yet again with dominance theory more limitations is put upon the dog. No where did I say you ignore it or not take any steps to help the dog through this time. In one sentence you say it not bad for a dog to express it dominance yet in another you say there is no room for it. I will say once again many dogs are happy to be followers. If the correct training at this time is given without to many limitations being put on the dog then this would avoid real dominance issues in dogs appearing at about 2 years old when they have had enough of the limitations are are fully grown to do something about it. Erny.... If the example I gave above is not a natural growth stage then what is it? tighten the reins to much in a dog at 9 to 12 months stifles a lot of the dogs ability to become adaptable later. Erny for your sake and worry of what novice handlers impressions will be of my comments then just for you at the top of my posts in future I will add NOT FOR NOVICE HANDLERS so they will get the message loud and clear. Erny..... Ok Erny tell us what problems would exist for the dog and what type of behaviours the dog displays, when someone says what they do with their dog works for them. Erny.... Now I am worried, "Govern", "Ruling", "Tighten Reins" you make it sound like prison system regulation training. Are we still talking about pet dogs and ther owners or criminals who need to be locked up and have the key thrown away never to have freedom again. All jokes a side Erny and I am joking with you on this point. Some people read to much into a dogs behaviour in what it does as being dominant and inadvertantly reinforce over control of the dog only to have issues surface later and then cannot conect what caused it. Can you all tell I have insomnia tonight

Kavik have you tried mixing it up and snaking it along the ground Like I have suggested to Sidoney?

That's ok just do what you can when you can it will all help. Possibly you have taken the food reward away to early for her and she has become confused. Also it would be a good idea to mix up the tug with throwing it for her, when she brings it back have a tug and then offer the reward to let go and throw it again. Take her off to one side at the trial or in the park where it is quite and play where there is not so many dogs and work closer to the other dogs when she is reliable. But I don't mean right in front of the other dogs. keep the sessions short and motivating so that you can practise 3 or 4 time in these places rather than one big long session. But I am sure you know this part already. The fact that she is now doing both to me seems you are not putting her in a mould that is not suited to her. Only that there was to much control on her before which has made it harder on you now to undo. I don't think anyone should accept recommended training methods without as much info from both party's being discussed. I would give her times to play on her own with what she likes but don't let this out weigh the times she plays with you. I think again that maybe you have taken the conformation to the dog that she is doing the right thing away to early by not rewarding with the food on some occasions. This will be particularly important if you cannot be consistent in your training at the moment. All of what I have said above, with the addition of also snaking the tug along the ground for the dog to pounce on and for her to try and stop it and pick it up in her mouth and when she does start tug with her offering a reward for her to let it go, when you want her to so that you can either throw it or snake it or simply offer the tug straight out. Mixing it up like this will keep her motivated to play. Do this at home in the park and at trials. Hope this will help you and thank you the compliment of wanting to pick my brains although on some days I have a hard time getting it to work myself I need to one day also pick your brains on a few things, let me know when you have the time to meet.

I have seen to many times a dogs natural growth stages from a puppy to adult dog being labelled as dominant behaviour. Also owners who have been given the wrong info on how to approach a dog properly around feed bowls or bones ect.... then being told their dog is being dominant There are very few real dominant dogs out there IMO. Examples: Un desexed male dogs around 9 to 12 months old have a huge influx of testosterone and chemicals in their bodies at this time which causes the dog to act with more excitement, lack of concentration and increased energy to name but a few things that happen to them at this stage. The dog is not really capable of controlling itself to well even if training has been given up to this point so through lack of understanding what is actually happening to the dog it gets labelled with dominance behaviour. An owner who has been given the wrong information about how to take bones off a dog safely or be able to reach for its feed bowl safety is told the dog is being dominant. Most often the poor owner is given even more bad info on how to fix this and ends up getting bitten. As I said before a lot of these theories are teaching the dog to challenge the owner or defend itself through fear of loss, which is what most humans do in the same circumstances. I agree Rom that fair leadership and understanding what a dogs needs and wants are will make the owner a better handler of the dog.

That's great to hear they are settling into their new runs and things are looking good. I would still set up the camera for the first week they have to spend all day in their runs just to make sure you have a way of finding out if anything goes wrong. Best of luck, hope all will be well from now on.

Hi Sidoney, Do you mean getting her to do the same kind of play out with your home or out of her mouth to let go. Just not sure what you mean. I think you mean out with your home yes! but can you let me know. Also what have you been doing so far if it is playing out with your home you mean. ;)

Most dogs are happy to be followers and guided into the correct behaviour if you know what you are doing. I have never believed in "Alpha " or "Dominance" theories as I have seen the damage they can do. A lot of it is myth and rubbish. One training school a while back I went to have a look at just to see what they were teaching horrified me. At the start of the class everyone had to put their dogs in the down roll them over, which some had to use force to do it and lie on top of them pinning the dogs to the ground. What the! Great way to put your dog off training for life. This was done to show the dog who was "boss" To many people out there are being given such wrong information. A lot of these theory's will make dogs challenge you because you are teaching them to do so. My dogs have always been allowed on the couch, on my bed and I feed them before me. This is my personal choice and may not be for every one but it has never caused me any problems. My dogs have always done what I have asked of them, and we have worked as a team with fairness and an understanding on my part of what the dog needs mentally and physically and providing the best environment for them to function in. As well as having just plain old fun for a good time with my dogs. ;)

L&L is your instructor at puppy school a vet nurse or a dog trainer? Which puppy school are you attending? This will be important as to the advice you are given. If you wish to can you tell us what else was covered in the class last night in case anything else may have been taught to you in the wrong way. In the end it is up to you whether you play tug with your dogs or not. But with what you have been told already I would start a new thread on your puppy class training so that if any wrong info has been given to you we can help you out.

Thanks for clearing things up 4paws. The toy sounds like a great toy, the only problem I can envisage may happen is that they may not bring it back to you if the retrieve has not been taught in the first place, but take it and try and get the treats out for themselves, but you never know.

There is a fee/cost for the info I have applied to get from the DPI. But the stories from others is to signify support for the change in legislation and to bear an explanation of how people (and their dogs) have benefited from the prong. These stories, as well as reference to and dissection of the info that was initially submitted to the DPI and utilised in favour of the ban, will all make up a good part of the submission. Well ..... that's my plan, anyway. Any help is useful. The problematic side with many (not all, mind) Vets is they often don't understand how the prong collar works or why and therefore their opinion may not be based on knowledgeable use. BUT if they do have access to any documentary evidence of things such as physical damage to the dog via PROPER use of the prong (as you know ANY piece of equipment NOT used properly can cause damage) then I'd certainly appreciate it if they could provide the same or at least a link to it. Thanks Erny, knew I had Mondayitis Will let you know how I go with the vets

I haven't heard anything either. Rom do you know there ridicules reasoning to this?

I guess your right dogdude I don't think your having moment, maybe because 4paws used the word drive then I am the one who has got it wrong. I just read it as wanting to teach the dogs how to play with toys. We will just have to wait and see

This is were I got confused I thought because of the privacy act then such documents would cost a fee for the DPI to gain acceptance of them being used. I must be having Mondayitis........ I can try some veterinary colleagues here to see what they think or have on documentation if you like but I am not hopeful they will approve but you never know till you ask.

Do you think Steve Austin will train your dog for free? I will say again many people on this forum have given you advice for free. You just don't seem to listen.

Thank you Pinnacle. Yes - there are a great many idiots and unfortunately they'll always be there. The problem with bans is that it only removes from the sensible law abiding people ....... the ones who could most appropriately use the banned item in the first place. I suppose I am the eternal optimist, always hoping we can get through to the idiots some how. I am not sure if there is anyway I can help you with what you are doing but let me know if there is. I will keep reading your thread with interest and hope to hear of your success

No L&L I don't need my ego stroked, it was just courtesy on my part, maybe that's something you need to learn about along with learning more about dog training before posting rubbish and confusing the OP. many people on this forum have given you advice and offer of assistance including myself but you still seem to be no further on than when you first started. I think its time you stopped talking dog training and start doing some instead.

Tony I wish I had your way with words, I am envious

No dogdude it would not be food drive the dog would be working for, it would only be confirmation to the dog it did the right thing to bring the toy back. It's the same with dogs who already chase a ball but will not bring it back and the owner has to chase it around to get it. Rewarding the dog when it brings the toy back is much easier for the owner to communicate to the dog that it did the right things. Not every one wants to jump up and down like a headless chicken and shriek in a excitable voice to praise there dog for something well done. This next comment is not directed at you dogdude, but I think people can get to hung up on drive training. All we are talking about here is simply to get a dog to play with its owner with some toys for fun.

Hi Erny thanks for your response, you have answered my concern very well. I have no objection to useing prong collars but you and I know that there are a great many idiots out there. Wishing you all the best in your endeavour.

Hi dogdude, 4paws wanted some help with getting her dogs to play with toys, the recommendations I gave were simple for that. Some of it may have looked like prey drive training. My recommendations were for motivating the dogs into play and not a full on program for prey drive. Using food rewards in these cases were simple to reward the dog for bringing back the toy once it had been thrown. Once 4 paws achieves a good toy response with simple retrieving as a play game, then at the end of my post was when I suggested tug would be another good game to introduce. I wanted to find out how she went with the first part before giving advice on tug games. However looking back on my post I now realise I did not explain that I wanted to wait for a response to the first part. Thank you to every one who agreed that tug can be a good game to play with your dog and it can simply be just that.... a game.