dee lee

Hey Nekhbet, do you think you cold post an answer on here too? Pretty please?! Evie never bolts our front door- we have very strict rules and she knows that when I tell her to get away from the door she is to do just that. The only time she accidently got out I was cleaning the car right out the front and she just walked up to me and stood there looking at me! This is my silly no-recall dog! However, at my parents house its a different story- my dad has mistakenly let her out several times (stubborn old coot refuses to adjust his habits when we visit :p ) she bolts and its taken about 15 mins for me to get her back each time. Luckily there have been no animals or cars around. It would be good to hear your advice to Snoopy21, maybe I can work out what Im doing wrong there.

I'll swap with you!! Evie has WAY too much drive for me- I wish she was a couch potato! Now if we could only work out how to stop her and Zoe killing each other... :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: How do you expect (me) to get on there if you tell everyone???

Why do you think it is a small chance your dog will meet one like that? I saw quite a few in the few months I took my dog to the local offleash. I really hope you stay lucky and dont end up regretting your cavalier attitude.

I have found that the manifestation of the fear seems to be slightly different depending on the environment- ie that at home my dog will be more confident and guarding in reacting towards passing dogs but when we are walking it seems more a panicked, defensive reaction. Regardless the intensity seems similar and is definitely fear based. Jaxx's buddy, my take on the different trainer is that it may be due to uncertainty. My dog is always "on alert". Perhaps they have been watching to see what would happen. I would doubt that the reduced fear would last long- with a change in approach my dog always appears to be coping better, takes about 2 times and then we are back to square one. Just an observation.

Having a fear aggressive dog, I have found that she is equally reactive at home and out. Its the dog that bothers her- she is no less afraid of them at home. Cant generalise, havent had much experience with FA dogs aside from mine.

My dog is a PITA puller, still working on it a year on (she is fairly ok now). some dogs are just worse than others I suspect- however... I use the quick about turn technique. When she starts to move ahead I will stomp loudly to mark the action and pivot on my foot and march in the other direction. She learnt very quickly she had to pay attention where I was or get pulled along. The stomp is a HUGE help in that all I have to do is stomp and it gives her a reminder. Once she got better with this I was able to use the above "tree" technique as she was paying more attention.

I was going to answer "My dog!", but I think I will just crawl back into my hole now... While you're there DeeLee, picture what your girl would have been like if you hadn't been prepared to do as much as you can. My guess is that many people would have simply given up. There are very challenging dogs to train around.. but it's not as simple as a breed issue. Thanks PF. I really do agree with what you have said- I am always amazed at people who complain about their dog's behaviour but aren't prepared to do anything about it via training. Frustrates the crap out of me.

I was going to answer "My dog!", but I think I will just crawl back into my hole now...

Dont know about the science of it but I do know that generally speaking my hyper dog is much calmer since I reduced the amount of exercise she was getting. Previously she was getting an hour plus brisk onlead walk most days and on the other 2-3 days she would go on a hard 40 min jog with my OH. She was quite fit. Like Ruthless we cut down for our housesitter to one half hour walk each day leading up to us leaving her (so he could take her to a tiny fenced park nearby for exercise). I was amazed when contrary to my expectations she became considerably calmer! So now she gets a 40 min walk most days, one jog per week and one day off. I am fascinated by Kelpie-i's post, thats some very interesting research that might help me.

I know nothing about labs but I have a 2yr old high energy dog (staffy x whippet or kelpie?) in a very small paved area. I would love to have more space but she seems to cope just fine with at least 40 mins brisk walk a day. She ended up much more energetic than we expected but there's not much we can do about that. The paving is very easy to clean with water after toileting- if we did have grass I am sure it wouldn't last long. Pet loos seem to me a great idea but they are between $300 and $400. If you have a park across the road you could always do some command toilet training and take it there.

I use this exact limited slip collar! Love it! Previously I was most comfortable with a check chain, but this doesn't slip down or lose its "check" position as easily as it has a leather component.

Its a good point. I have tried humming and singing in my head and that does help . At the very least its a good way to get other dog walkers to avoid us- "Here comes that crazy singing woman and her vicious dog" Fortunately I go early in the morning.

Sorry, I missed this! Kelpie-i, I understand the principle but how did you do this? It sounds like something I can start immediately (ie before I get the book and clicker). She has been a real PITA this week. Oh and what is the "Emergency Shut down maneuvre"?

With the tree thing- I make my dog walk back to me before I start again. I did this by saying "back" and pointing to beside me. You could use treats at first. Now I only use the command if she doesn't automatically do it. I also have spent months of insisting she heel for the majority of her walk. With the heeling if she starts to get ahead I spin and turn, forcing her to follow me. This has worked better than anything. *sigh* She's 2 now and we have been working on this for over a year- the improvement has been slow but noticeable. "It wont happen overnight, but it will happen".

I think I may have given the wrong impression with this. When she first started showing the aggression I definitely was oozing with tenseness and no doubt influenced Evie's behaviour. Once I was made aware of that i have worked really really hard to lessen my reaction. Now, the stress is more that I get very annoyed after she has acted out. I think zen thoughts when i see a dog and try to assume the best, I no longer feel anxious- the worst would be irritated which I hide. I suspect it has become more a learnt behaviour from earlier. I am convinced my reaction has little to do with it as she is on high alert regardless of what I am doing. There are less instances of it than before but I would like zero! MonElite: Lately we have seen only a couple of dogs when walking- we are back to the streets now its so dark at 6am. For the most part it is much more pleasant though and I have been enjoying it more. Unfortunately though she has decide the Akita in our street is her enemy and its sometimes its hard to avoid him when are coming home. No big deal though, I just proceed as normal and reel her in if she carries on. JulesP: I want to thank you for making me think about what bothers me- it was a real eyeopeneer and really helped me on my walk this morning, made me not care so much! To your question: Really Im not worried that she will connect with another dog, we are never close enough and I have complete control of her. I have bought a muzzle but that was for when I was considering a playdate with a dog she gets on with. I havent used it. As for if I am not tense- I have been occasionally suprised by her reaction to a dog (she does have certain criteria for her "targets") and she has acted out despite my calmness. Quickasyoucan: I do exactly the same and wear an Ipod when walking. It has helped enormously. Someone else walk her - whatever do you mean??? No-one else but me can! Seriously, my OH runs with her and says much the same thing. Sometimes I make him walk her with me to see if she behaves better but its pretty much the same.

Thanks. Well it is embarrassing thats true, but I can live with that. These days I'm 100% confident I can hold her, and that she will not get away. Im not sure if she would actually do damage, in all her altercations she has never drawn blood. Im not keen to test this though. At one point I was afraid of actually getting bitten myself as she initially began to show some redirected aggression but following my trainer's specific advice on this I dealt with this and consequently her behaviour improved- her outbursts have lessened and she is more mindful of me quicker now. Now that you have made me think, its a tough question . Ok, firstly its a very stressful way to walk, watching her alertness, waiting for that potential explosion and trying to avoid getting stressed myself. I would like to enjoy walking. Also, I feel that in her snarling and lungeing it expresses her fear and I am frustrated that despite my best efforts I cant seem to prevent this level of anxiety that she is feeling. Oh and another BIG reason is that I would like to be able to walk her with my kids and that is very difficult as my eldest daughter gets terrified when she sees another dog now in anticipation of our dog's behaviour.

I know what you mean- when we got Evie the foster carer told me she had already been "sent back" by another family. I was scandalised- how heartless, I thought! How pathetic to give up on such a lovely dog! They obviously didnt deserve to own a dog. This was why, when quickly it became apparent that she was not a good fit with my family, I did not "send her back". In retrospect I have had cause to regret that, but as much as I might entertain the thought of rehoming frequently, I simply dont think I could do it. The idea of it breaks my heart. Mind you, I think I'd have a hard time finding a taker for her now- but perhaps if i had done it earlier she may have found a home better equipped to deal with her. She certainly has not been a dog for an inexperienced trainer such as myself. So yes, I understand what you are saying- obviously I too am a lot more understanding of people who want to rehome these days. ETA: Just so I dont always end on a sad note I will add the positives too : She is a lovely dog to live with- she rarely barks, always does as I tell her, will happily stay at home with a bone if we go out, doesnt get up on furniture and LOVES us all SO much. Pretty damn good really. Now if only she would stop trying to rip the throats out of passing dogs...

I cant remember that !! I was under influence that night. In fact I thought we are going to put a subject up to see if there is more sharing the feeling You go first!! Actually I shouldnt dare you!!! :p

ONLY KIDDING!!!!! or will you just open that door "accidentally" one day? :rolleyes: Ill help Ruths Trixie out the door too :p Jokes girls jokes, I know you love them!!! But please take Divani with you too ;) Shhh! We agreed never to mention that!!!! Thanks Huski!

Im sorry K9 but I find your response rather ambiguous and confusing. :rolleyes: Yes, he felt she was fear aggressive- the ol' get the other dog before he gets me routine which I am in total agreeance with. He has seen my leadership skills and witnessed her behaviour first hand with her nemisis down the road. He also witnessed my response at the time (terror!!) and gave me advice based on what he felt I could cope with in those circumstances. It has been management of the dog's issues combined with our home environment. Now that I am more confident (thanks to his coaching) I was looking for other people's experiences on how they have stopped the actual acting out. I think yet again I was looking for a magic bullet.

K9: there are various forms of rank drive, but often rank drive is a product of over confidence, lack of leadership or fear aggression turned confident. Rank driven dogs gain drive satisfaction by exerting dominance, commonly through aggression. Hmm. Are you saying that this is directed at me or at other dogs? I work hard on leadership in our home and on our walks. At home she follows all commands I give to her and is mindful of boundaries that I have set. NO sign of exerting dominance- even over my 2 young children. When walking she is on high alert to her surroundings. She will walk to heel if directed and her "free" walking (looselead) is getting better, but if we come across a dog she is uncertain of she loses her focus on me entirely and will snarl and lunge towards it til she chokes herself. Does this fit with the rank aggression? I wouldve thought it was classic fear aggression?

Could you define rank aggressive for me? Im unsure of what you mean.

You are so right- when Evie was a pup we would go to offleash parks and unfortunately she had some bad experiences there. This, coupled with my ignorance on how to deal with them, was, to my mind, the basis for her fear aggression. You live and learn... I believe she already had some "issues" when I adopted her at 6 months (My first trainer said she was noticeably under-socialised) so in retrospect I should have avoided offlead parks from day one. I think most of my regrets stem from the early offlead park days- they were really lovely. Trying to find the positive experiences now! Monika- I would really like that!

Hi Mon, I agree with ALL you have said and Rex's story is very relevant to Evie's- though I don't feel confident or good enough a handler to ever expect perfect recall . I accept my limitations. My goal is, as you have said, "to be able to take your dog places and have her behave with no stupidity" . I would like to be able to walk her and have her be non-reactive around other dogs, or at the very least not snarl and carry on around them. I immediately check her and stop her when she does it, but just would like to know how to STOP her from doing it. Its quite stressful for both of us. I am resigned to her being on leash and not safe for offlead parks - I feel that is too much of a risk, hence why I havent worked on recall. Occasionally, like you, I think about what she is missing out on (and whine about it ) but realistically I am protecting her from fallout should she attack another dog. Over the new year when I had a week off from her I had a good hard think about the stressful nature of owning Evie and decided to "step back" a little, put less expectation on her and try and enjoy her as part of our family. This means (again, as you said much earlier in this topic !) taking baby steps. One such step is stopping the aggressive behaviour. When she does I would be delighted for her to meet Rex!