Lou Castle

I've come across a surprising (to me) number of dogs who find the vibration highly aversive. Some of them panic when they feel it. But it's fairly easy to overcome, especially if you anticipate that this may happen, and take steps to prevent it. Start by familiarizing the dog with the sight and sound of the Ecollar receiver. Then press the vibration button with them a few feet away. Usually they'll be curious about it, and if you reinforce that with a treat, toy or praise, will not fear it. If they show some sign of fear, wrap the receiver in a towel, and do some play with them with it. That will muffle the sound and then you can gradually unwrap it, still making it vibrate, until they're desensitized to it. After they're used to the sound, introduce the feel of it. You can keep it wrapped in the towel and touch it to them. The sensation will be muted by the towel and you can gradually unwrap it. Then you can start to use it for training. I've found that more dogs are frightened by the vibration than by the stim.

Meriment, thanks so much for writing of your success with your training with Steve. I’m sure that many will read your post and lose a bit of their fear of the Ecollar and may even be encouraged to give it a try, instead of being swayed by those who don't know how to use it properly. Let's not forget, "Good job, Steve."

Unless you know the dog's history, any kind of a guess as to what has happened to him is, as I've said a guess. Just because a dog is handshy does NOT mean that he was beaten. He could have run into his owner's hand at top speed and hurt himself. Now he's making the association because of the pain he got, not because of any beating. People who pretend to know what has happened to a dog based only on what they see now are guessing. You need to learn to read critically. And that goes for what I've posted and what you've posted as well. First, what you posted was not a "review of Ecollars." It was, as the title quite clearly said, "Electronic Training Devices: A Review of Current Literature." The 50-year-old study that I referred to was NOT on Ecollars, because they didn't exist. It was on the effect of electric shock on dogs and that's been going on almost since electricity was first discovered. How's this? http://www.alldogsgym.com/training/clicker-history.asp Shouldn't you know this stuff?

I define anything used in dog training as "tools." That includes your voice, your touch, flat collars, leashes, long lines, pinch collars, Ecollars and anything else that you can think of. It's impossible to train a dog without using tools. Perhaps your definition of "tools" is different?

Until someone invents a device that lets us talk to dogs in a language that we both understand, any attempt to "understand the reason for the dogs problems in the first place" is just a guess. It may be an "educated guess," but it's still just a guess. Anyone who tells you any different is not being honest. Clickers are older than Ecollar, having been invented about 50 years ago. Ecollars were invented in the late 1960's, only about 40 years ago. Yes! To both questions. There will always bee the "newer is better" thinking among some people, It's human nature. It's not always right, but it's there for some folks. Just having the tools doesn't mean that people are capable of applying them. I think so. I know quite a few dogs whose lives have been saved by the Ecollar.

I have the time but I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by the sentence you want me to reply to. If you'd expand this a bit, I'd be happy to respond.

I don't know of a tool that isn't easy to use incorrectly. People think that treats are a benign way to train that that nothing bad can happen with them. But I've seen many fat dogs who have been trained with treats. Often those owners have not adjusted the dog's regular feedings to cut back on the food because the dog is getting part of his nutrition during the training. A fat dog is worse off than a fat human. Dogs lay down their fat in between their internal organs and that means that their hearts and lungs don't have the room they need to work properly. That causes lifelong damage and will probably shorten the dog's life. People think that clickers can't be misused. I saw a frustrated clicker trainer throw her clicker at her dog's head because he wasn't "getting it." It was only by luck that he wasn't hit in the eye. The bottom line is that any tool can be misused. Any tool can be abused. No tool is idiot proof to the right idiot. One should not avoid a tool because "it's easy to misuse," they all are. One good thing about the Ecollar, is that it can't cause any physical damage, even if it is misused.

Do you understand the concept that "one can't prove a negative." Rather the burden is the other way. There have been dozens of studies looking for just what you suggest occurs, some kind of physical damage. NOT ONE STUDY HAS SHOWN IT. What is your evidence that the studies that have been done have been "poorly done?" The studies have been going on for more than 50 years; almost since Ecollars were invented. Please don't think that you're being attacked just because someone is disagreeing with you. I don't think you're offering anything new. There have been dozens of studies that covered the points you brought up. Not one of them showed any physical damage.

My reality is certainly different from yours. I've given myself thousands of stims from Ecollars. I test mine that way every morning before I put them on my dogs to make sure that they're working. And that's often at higher levels than where I first perceive the stim. It's certainly not a high level stim but it's not the lowest I can feel either. I've also felt the highest levels of stim from many models of Ecollar. Sometimes for sustained period of time, 20-30 seconds. I've had thousand of people feel the stim from an Ecollar. At my seminars everyone used to have to feel it. These days because many have already felt the stim I only have people who have not felt a stim before, feel it. NOT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE have reported anything such as you describe. I never have either. It's quite possible (probable even) that you did not use a modern version of the tool for your experiment. If you used a model that had a limited number of levels you might not have been able to go low enough so that you could avoid the response you got. That's going to give a vastly different result form someone who's using a modern Ecollar with at least 15 levels, my minimum recommendation. If there had been any studies that show this anti-Ecollar people would be shouting them to the heavens. But NOT ONE STUDY has shown anything that you're talking about. What are your definitions of "positive" and "negative" training? Such differences don't exist anywhere in learning theory. I think you're making value judgments that the dogs don't make. There ARE negatives to using an Ecollar. First is that they're expensive. I don't know of any other training tool that costs as much. You have to remember to keep them charged. You have to remember to put them on the dog. You have to remember to turn them on. If you have more than one you have to remember to bring the proper transmitter with the proper collar unit. I agree. But your claims of physical damage done to dogs is without any basis in fact. Did you read the Review of Current Literature" that PDTS posted? There are studies there that go back for 50 years. How much science are we required to show before "it's enough?"

There's a third group. Those who use it as a teaching tool. This is done on low levels. Actually there's some overlap between us, but you omitted this group. NaturallyWild wrote: The trouble with joe-public using an e-collar is that they probably don't have the skill or self control to know the best level to use when in a "situation" with thier dog. The first is a matter of training. People can get that by going to my website, reading the articles and then putting it into action. As far as "self control" – if they don't have the self control to use an Ecollar, which gives the fastest results possible, then they certainly don't have it for other tools that take more time to get results. NaturallyWild wrote: We all know of the abuse that can be given with check chains, prong collars and halters - because the person is untrained, unskilled and emotional about the situation - it is therefore laughable to say that the similar abuse could not occur with an e-collar. Of course it can occur. But people aren't going to spend that money JUST to abuse their dog. NaturallyWild wrote: The big issue i have been pondering recently is about the "damage" that could occur from an e-collar (both physically and emotionally). There is no support for a showing of any physical damage from an Ecollar. As far as "emotional damage" we're talking opinion here. I think that there's just as much potential for emotional damage with "all positive methods." NaturallyWild wrote: Obviously there is the potential for emotional damage through poor timing, to high stimulation, etc but people here seem to deny the fact that and e-collar can cause physical damage If such damage was possible, then there would be studies that show it. But even studies done by anti-Ecollar folks don't show any. They say such things as (Klein, 2000). 332 M.B.H. Schilder, J.A.M. van der Borg / Applied Animal Behaviour Science 85 (2004) 319–334and Klein 2000and Biobehavioral monitoring and electronic control of behavior (Lindsay, S. (2005). Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training: Procedures and Protocols, Vol. 3. Iowa: Blackwell Publishing, 557-665.)and (Sang et.al., 2003).There are more but you get the idea. NaturallyWild wrote: and there are also comparisons made to tens machines. Tens machines can cause damage - ever try turning one up high on your self, serious damage can occur to muscle fibres. Their effect is not always just local - if in the right position the signals can transmit through nerves to different areas of the body. I don't think people realise the potential for effect that could be cause even if it is just a localised stimulation. Simple to avoid. Don't turn it up. But, in reality the only reason that the comparison is made to TENS machines is that more people are familiar with them and they have adjustable levels. TENS machines put out much more current than do Ecollars, even at the highest levels. If you have some study that shows physical damage to nerves, blood vessels, muscle or any kind of tissue from an Ecollar please post it. No one else has ever found it. NaturallyWild wrote: Who here has had acupuncture/acupressure done to them We're really into an area of comparing apples and oranges here. There is NO link between Ecollars and acupuncture/acupressure. NaturallyWild wrote: Food for thought everyone. Not really. This is more "food for fright." People have been looking for physical damage from Ecollars for decades and never has it been found. NEVER.

Where's an Electrical Engineer when you really need one? LOL. Yep. Scary isn't it? I find it interesting that PDTS who posted the Review continued to call it a "Study" as if this was new information even after she was corrected as to it's true nature! She's obviously trying to influence those who don't see this for what it really is. This is the phenomenon that I referred to in my earlier response where they put together a document that looks at old studies (some as old as 50 years) and publish it. The unsophisticated call it a "study" and quote it as if it was something new. Then people quote those quotations and it's a never-ending list of citations, all traceable back to one original document. But it appears to those who don't closely examine such things as if there's an landslide of new information that shows the dangers of Ecollars.

I've only seen him use one once on his show. That was aversion training, with a dog that chased farm equipment. My site gives clear "how-to" instructions so that even a novice can pick up the tool and use it to train their dog to their satisfaction. Hundreds have. These are people who do it without a trainer and who have little to no experience in training a dog beforehand. It's a very simple tool to use properly with a little instruction. The only way to stop Ecollars from getting into everyone's hands is for the government to ban them. Such bans have never worked in the history of mankind. All that happens is that use of the tool will go "underground" and a black market will open up where prices are significantly higher. The best course at this time is education, teaching people who will use the tool the best way to do so. There's really no need for that. My pets are not working police dogs yet they have the same level of OB that they do. The only real difference is that the police dogs do different things. My experience has been that when the tool is used properly the outcome is always positive. I've not come across a dog that hasn't responded properly to the tool, used as I advocate it. I find it hard to believe that an abusive dog owner is going to spend several hundred dollars on an Ecollar to abuse their dog. Not when boots are handier and sticks are free.

No. There is stress involved in any learning. No. Not when the tool is used properly. This can happen with high level stim use but unless one does it for days with low level stim, it doesn’t occur. And then only if the dog is not shown how to shut if off. The dog should be just as happy when the Ecollar is on as when it's off. If anyone answers these question differently, they're talking about abuse or misuse of the tool.

Odd but I don't recall anyone saying that any manufacturer did that. Perhaps you can show us the post? Poodlesplus wrote: It as if one of your lower class students who knows stuff all about dogs came at you.telling you how to handle dogs, You would be a bit bewildered, and wouldn't know where to start. It was a bit like that for me. I'm afraid that you've got this backwards. I've been using Ecollars for nearly two decades. There are some others here that have been using them for quite some time, some perhaps longer than me. (Some perhaps a LOT longer than me)! and then along you come spouting theory, telling us how bad Ecollars are and that we know nothing of them. Poodlesplus wrote: I am as good as a claim to be, I am probably a little better. No ego problems there! ROFL. Poodlesplus wrote: If you care to email me I am quite happy to provide credentials in a way that protects my identity. Why do you need to protect your identify? Are you a spy and if your true identity was revealed it could seal the fate of the free world? (If you are, say, "No.") Poodlesplus wrote: I also expcet you to reply with your credentials too. Mine are on my website. Poodlesplus wrote: laughter at their profession. You've said this several times. Each time we've denied that it's happened and you've been invited to show us the post where anyone has made fun of your profession. Each time you've failed to do so. Now you're just whining. No one has made fun of your profession. Poodlesplus wrote: I will very occassionally contribute. I wonder why anyone feels the need to tell us this? If you want to contribute do so. If you don't, then don't. Poodlesplus wrote: but I will abide by the forums formal and imformal rules. As will the rest of us. Again, I wonder why you feel the need to tell us this? Poodlesplus wrote: As for apologies, I would see you as a professional if you actually read what I have written, came back and said, look i am sorry, you are right on the elctrical bits, now lets get on with it. Instead you just seem to be bitcing away. Good on ya. I've proposed at least TWICE now the following situation. I've not seen any response from you. Poodlesplus wrote: I just live for the day when my ability to practice my methods is not continously encroached on, or met with a Met with a ?????????

Long before a head halter causes visible physical damage to a dog that doesn't like it, the dog has been tortured for countless hours. A dog that is terrified of the noise that a clicker makes lives in constant fear that it will occur again, especially if the owner decides to desensitize the dog to it. Imagine the psychological horror of offering your best friend a treat but then NOT giving it to him because he didn't sit, when commanded! People who favor so-called "all positive methods" like to pretend that this "damage" doesn't occur because there's no outward physical signs and the thrill of the next treat masks it, but it's there. Every form of training and every tool used in dog training induces stress.