aatainc

what the? What do you mean you got it from a urine sample? Are you a nurse? Sorry - I'm confused! edit: oh, I get it - they found the infection because of the urine sample. Get it now. Are you really sick? Salmonella usually makes you violently ill. I hope that doesn't happen!!

Quote: "if the chooks have had it, it's in the meat, no matter how careful you handle it". Actually, that's inaccurate. Salmonella is picked up from the environment - it's a bacteria - you don't store bacteria in your flesh - neither do chickens - yes, it can be in their gut - but it doesn't cross over into their meat. It's a bit like saying if the chicken had cancer then you'll get cancer. MOST salmonella poisonings result from chicken faeces - not the actual flesh. So the problems occur when the chicken is not handled carefully at the processing point - if faeces or other gut contents contaminate the meat at that point that's when you can have trouble. So it's very important to buy your chicken from a human food source where it's handled well. Older meat has had longer to be exposed to the bacteria in the environment so that also has increased risk of problems. You shoudl still take good hygeine precautions because you could have bacteria in your environment which you don't want getting into food. wash all bowls and preparation equipment very thoroughly. Don't use wooden chopping boards - use plastic instead as it's easier to disinfect. Freezing the meat before defrosting adn using it can help. If you use a human food source, buy fresh meat and take reasonable precautions the chances of your dog catching salmonella is MINISCULE. If your dog or family member was immunocompromised (ie, had AIDS or leukaemia) then I probably wouldn't do it but otherwise the risk is barely worth mentioning.

Thanks very much tollerblaize and natasha. Answering some of your questions tb, (unfortunate initials there): Clicker training - YES! Absolutely!. It's excellent. Our toller absolutely thrives on it. the other benefit of a clicker when working with an excitable dog is that often the excitable sorts only give you a split second to reward them before they move onto the next thing - they're too fast! a clicker is a much faster way of marking the correct behaviour and the treat comes later. I'm sure you can read better definitions elsewhere so I won't go into it too much. Also a click is a non-emotional way of rewarding so sometimes it gets them less revved up than normal praise or patting. so yes, try to get into it. If you're in brissie we can offer lessons on getting started and we also stock clickers. Otherwise, there's plenty of places that could help you. Who am I? - I'm the trainer/manager for an Assistance Dog training group in Brisbane. You probably won't have heard of us because we're tiny and our yearly budget is about the size of the average garbage truck driver's weekly wage - but hey, we do our best. Our toller is going to be a great assistance dog. you're welcome to keep asking questions. If you're in brissie I'd love to meet your puppy actually because I LOVE toller pups! Glad to hear that calm is helping. as for the walking: the off leash play in the afternoon is probably fine - at least it helps wear him out for bedtime. However for health reasons, 40 minutes walking is an absolute no no. Tollers are one breed that will not stop when they have physically had enough - so they can do some serious damage to joints and muscles from overexercising. I would cut it down to no more than 5 minutes at a time. You could do this in 2 separate lots if you wanted. I personally don't walk my pups at all until they're at least 6-8 months old. I do however teach them to walk on lead around the house and in the yard. They also get out to socialise around shops etc and go to puppy preschool. So they do still learn how to walk nicely just don't go on "walks." ninaandted - it sounds to me like your problem's cause is very different to tollerblaize's and naughtydogs. It sounds like your dog is bored. My biggest reason for guessing this is that labbies are less likely to be overstimulated - although it is possible. Try some of the suggestions that people have made earlier on this thread - such as toys, kongs etc. A citronella collar might be ok - I would consider talking to K9Force (a poster on this list) about an electronic one instead though. The citronella can have some side effects - and I believe that the stimulation from the electronic one is nowhere near as "shock" like as we may have been led to believe. Having said that - I've never used one and have no need to so you'll have to ask around about that. If she is barking while she's outside and your in she probably just wants to be let inside - so let her in more! A lot of dogs calm down a lot more when they're "inside;" dogs. When you're out make sure she's entertained - ie. follow some of mc boxer's suggestions earlier. I would generally give her more attention. In this case it sounds a little more like she's bored and lonely. Maybe one of your neighbours or their dogs would like to visit her during the day when she's out? You could always ask! good luck!

I agree with kitkat. Lots of lamb flaps are great for him - lamb offcuts with bones in them too! Also try mixing sardines through stuff. If you're worried, nutripet (or other vitamin supplement ) plus raw meaty bones would be a fine diet for a number of weeks. By the way, he's beautiful - can I have him?

LB - I think the main problems are these; -Kangaroo is always preserved (pet stuff that is) and as you know the die can kill vit b - whereas you would probably be able to get preservative free meats of all other kinds just as cheaply. -kangaroo is a major carrier of toxoplasmosis and therefore poses a risk to pregnant women. They can get it just by touching the meat - and dogs can get it and pass it on through their faeces - so the more dogs fed kangaroo the more problems pregnant women face around dogs. -Kangaroo is a frequent carrier of other parasites. we recently had one very sick puppy due to hookworm which we strongly suspect he got through his kangaroo meat - and NOTE - we did use drontal every 2 weeks and he still got it. -kangaroo is very rich and so yes it can cause tummy upsets. -as it is so lean it can cause the condition of the coat to deteriorate if it is the main or only meat source -it is low in essential fatty acids so you would need to add supplements to allow for this -Roo meat - as it is mainly harvested by piggers and landowners - is not a regulated industry. You are much more likely to get contaminated meat from roos and other wild animals than you are from normal human meats - even of pet grade. Roo is not inspected like human meats. Really though - none of these things are major factors if you have a dog that is allergic to almost everything but roo. I would absolutely avoid it with pregnant women or immune compromised people or animals anywhere near though.

Toller blaize and naughty dog, Can I add a different suggestion? I have a toller and border collies myself so I sort of know where you're at.... Both of these breeds are very reactive and alert. My toller "screams" at the slightest sight of someone arriving but stops barking quickly - just as soon as the others start! The main thing with these guys is CALM. The reason he is barking at such varied times and at different stimuli is probably because he/they are overstimulated. In other words, I am saying the opposite of everyone else. He is not bored. (He couldn't be - you are providing everything he needs and more!) He needs to be MORE bored - i.e. - less stimulated! For the next couple of weeks, make everything CALM. Have a routine too. When you get him up to pee, be CALM. Speak in a very low, soft voice, and don't use any more words than you have to to get him outside and peed. Avoid turning the light on in your midnight pee trip if you can. The dark will keep him calmer. Once he has toileted speak in a soothing voice to praise him. Do not give him a treat for weeing unless treats do not overexcite him. (They usually do) I have found with my toller in particular, that physical contact makes him go raving mad. So for the first month he was here - we maintained a "hands off" policy. In other words, he got groomed and patted in a calm manner when he was relaxed, but we were totally hands off with our training. We didn't use any patting for rewards because he learnt faster if we kept him calm and any amount of patting would rev him up. We also were especially careful not to use any physical manipulating to train him - as that was worse! Use food to lure him into position, or just simply wait until he does it - don't push him physically to do something - his brain will overload!. Now, after learning more behaviours and growing up a little we can pat our toller as a reward (and it's a very potent reward) but I still don't do it much - and stop as soon as he gets excited. Anyway, back to the routine. Put him back in his crate (presuming you're not getting up yet at 4:30!) and calmly say something like "goodnight" and go back to bed. Under no circumstances make any response to his barking. When you get him up finally in the morning, once again, CALM. No excited greetings. Put him outside to pee (go with him if necessary) and then let him inside for his breakfast. Try to prepare his brekky before you let him up so that he isn't getting excited while he's watching you prepare brekky. Same for all the meals. Call him to "come" from wherever he is for his brekky and that's one training session out of the way. Require him to sit before you put his bowl down - and look you in the eye. If he's sitting and looking in your eye then he's not being overexcited. After brekky, out to toilet. Let's presume that you are at home from now on - rather than going to work. After toileting, let him hang around inside the house with you. Whatever you do, do not speak to him, pat him, give him treats or do anything exciting yourself. When you have to speak, do so in a low tone. When I'm doing this program i often sing a soft slow song to myself under my breath - like singing a baby to sleep. If he's barking at you, yawning or sighing can help calm them. Eye contact makes it worse. After at least an hour of you being calm and totally ignoring him (no matter what) you might try an official training session. (Make sure in this hour of calm that there's nothing exciting happening - no visitors etc. If visitors arrive or something happens that excites him start counting the hour again. You need a good solid block of nothingness.) When you have decided it's time for a training session, call his name and, using treats, teach him some basic behaviours for no more than 5-10 minutes. STOP immediately if he starts getting over excited. End the session with a little ball throwing to help tire him out and give him a release. However, do this ball throwing without great fanfare - don't over praise him excitedly - just nice soothing praise. Do say three of these sessions each day - always after some good quiet time. The reason for this is that training will become his excitement for the day. Training will therefore become one of his favourite activities - I'm sure you can see the benefits to this. The biggest benefit though is that he gets this as a reward for some calm time. Lunch time should be a bone in his crate or outside - something to tire him out physically and mentally and also help fill his tummy which will calm him. Try lamb off cuts or chicken frames - something big and challenging. If you have to pop out - after lunch (and toileting) while he's still full is a good time to put him in his crate and go out. Don't leave him for too long but if you can hear from outside - try not to come back while he's barking. Even one second's break is enough to open the door and praise calmly for the quiet. Maintain more calmness in the afternoon and evening. Feed him around your dinner time so that he'll hopefully be calmer in the evening from a full tummy. Now, onto other things. I disagree about the walking. Firstly, because going outside is stimulating and secondly, because he's just far too young for official walks. It's not good for his bones. wait until he's at least 5 months old. Also, I would strongly recommend you put him on a fresh raw human food diet. I.e. - a BARF diet. (Bones and raw foods.) Dogs fed fresh raw food are more calm than dogs on dog food. DEFINITELY remove any dog foods that contain any food colourings such as meaty bites, my dog, lucky dog, chum etc. My pups eat: Brekky - oats, yoghurt, honey, egg and banana (oats, banana and honey all have ingredients that act as a nerve tonic which calms them.) (the oats are rolled oats lightly cooked by the way.) Lunch - nice big raw meaty juicy bone. (Always fed outside, in the garage or crate - that way they are learning to be alone for a period too.) Dinner - pet mince from a butcher (not a pet food brand as these are preserved) with a 1/4 cup of juiced raw vegetables and some vegemite (also for the nerve tonic properties of vitamins B.) This sort of diet will help calm him down compared to dry food because dry food has excess energy - not to mention additives. I would definitely disagree with the advice to spray or correct him for barking - tollers love water and both breeds love to chase things - so water catching can become a big game. Also, corrections of any sort once again overstimulate them. I agree with mcboxer - avoid picking him up - UNLESS you find that it calms him down. In which case, you can pick him up as a calming exercise - try lying him belly up on your lap while you sit on the floor with him. Hold him still until he stops struggling and then praise him soothingly. Sometimes this routine can help bring him down from a "high". I also agree with pesh - take him to the vet if there's any chance it could be a sight or hearing problem. Honestly though, I think it's not too uncommon for a toller to bark a bit until you've solved the issues. Also agree with staffordsrule - walking is not such a good idea because of the potential bone damage but swimming is great! Get into it if you can. Mclennan's suggestions are good for in the yard when you have to go out and crating isn't an option. I wouldn't use them until you've maintained the calm routine for a couple of weeks but they are a good way to introduce spending time in the yard without getting upset about the separation. I know this might seem contradictory to what I said before but here goes explaining it: -He is unhappy about being without you when he's in the yard. So he barks. His barking overstimulates him and actually becomes a bit of an obsessive compulsion. It would be better to gradually introduce him to the yard so that this vicious cycle never starts. Using some of these tricks is a good way to introduce him to the yard without him "missing you" but only do it when he has started out calm. I hope that makes sense. What samadams suggested could help with most dogs but I wouldnt' with either a toller or a border collie. The reason is that these dogs are extremely smart and both breeds can be anticipators. I.e. - they try to guess what behaviours you want in order to earn what they want - treats, attention, whatever. Many dogs that have learnt that sometimes you want them to "speak' will try speaking over and over to see if that earns a treat. At this stage I wouldn't be rewarding speak at all - not even by telling him to "quiet" (which is rewarding because it's attention.) Otherwise , it would be good advice for labbies or something like that. Naughty dog - addresing you specifically now: Do you see what your situation is? You have listed out so many things - you are giving him so much to do! Excitement is the order of the day at your place for puppy. This is probably why he's barking - he's just so happy and overexcited that he can't contain himself. Movement and exciting things are the number one reasons that working dogs bark. I wouldn't do any off leash training yet - if he doesn't listen then he's only un-learning things you want him to learn. Stick to leash work until it's better. IF you implement the calming routine and add in 3 x 15 min sessions for your 6 month old - do them off leash at home only and after a while training will become so much fun that he will want to listen more at obedience. In order for this to work though, training has to be the most important thing in his day - so most of his day should be CALM and then training should be contrasted to this. You may even need to reduce the amount of exercise he gets and reduce his toy access to just a couple. Avoid squeaky toys as some dogs bark back at the squeak. Try to keep him inside with you as much as possible. Inside is boring - outside there's things to see and hear and bark at. If he is outside and barking - do not go out to chain him up or spray him. Like you said - he's starting to run away - this is the beginning of a very bad habit!! (Probably half the reason he's ignoring you off leash too.) I would go outside to him, and completely ignore him. No speaking, no touching and no eye contact. Walk around the yard examining the grass. Your dog will be interested by your fascination for the grass and will start to follow you around. He will likely be quiet during this exercise. AFter a minute or so of quiet calmly praise him and let him inside. If he's barking inside, do the same thing - or crate him. You said it yourself - he shouldn't be bored. That's because he isn't. Like you said, he has too much to do. He's barking at night at all of the noises - once again - overstimulation. Try to shut windows and keep him in the quietest room at night by the way. The idea, is to make his life more boring so that he has less things to bark at. I know this probably sounds very contradictory to what everyone else has said. Usually, when we hear of a barking dog, we immediately rush in to tell them that it's bored and to entertain it more. I usually would too. However, with these breeds, at these ages - it's different. Also, the reason I can tell that it's not likely to be boredom is because your cases are so different. USually it's "my dog barks all day while he's left alone." On further questioning, these poor dogs never have any toys or attention. In this case, it's the opposite. You are doing everything "right" yet still the barking occurs. Try the calming for at least 2 weeks. Avoid eye contact, patting, excitable praise, exciting events etc except for during your short training exercises and use these things as rewards them. Ignore all barking. The key is CALM, CALM and more CALM. This has worked for a number of our overstimulated dogs by the way - not just our toller. Oh , guess what, hubby just came home and I told him the story of Blaize. He isn't exactly a dog trainer - but before I even mentioned what I thought - he said "he's overstimulated." There you go. Someone agrees with me! Naughty dog - you thought your's was an essay!! Sorry for the long post - hope it helps - and please keep me updated if you do try this method. by the way - just have to add - often when you reduce the amount of exercise and attention the dog is getting the barking will get worse for a couple of days. Expect this - it's kind of an extinction burst. It will get better again.

I train assistance dogs and I have a dog that is about to graduate as a service dog. The longest I would ever consider asking HIM to stay is 10 minutes in a drop. I know he could do longer if necessary but that just makes the whole stay exercise - and in fact, training in general - a negative thing. The absolutely most important thing you should be teaching your puppy now is "come". at 16 weeks of age my little pointer has a recall that would be the envy of many an adult dog. "Come" and whoosh - he turns around and runs at me full pelt - even when he's in the middle of a bone or a game with another puppy. That's because "come" has always meant "dinner time" or treat time for him. I will continue this routine until he's at least 6 months old. By the way, at 14 weeks he could sit, drop, stand, come, heel nicely for a few metres on and off lead, stack for showing and sit stay/drop stay for 30 secs or so. SO... it is possible to have fairly large number of behaviours down pat by this age but the important thing to remember is not to expect the puppy to perform in the same way or to the same perfection as an adult, and also to train using 99.9% positives (unless the dog is doing something that might endanger his life, for example) and reward, reward, reward.

I find it interesting that you think dogs from obedience schools are robots that obey anybody - how can you have formed this opinion when you've never been to one? At an obedience school YOU and you only will handle your dog. A dog that comes out of obedience school will certainly not be robotic and hardly any dogs will obey a new person without doing some training with that person.

A lot of the die hard purely positive trainers that I have met recently completely deny the existence of a heirarchy and will not use the word dominance at all. I know, I was chastened for using the word.

Try to borrow a copy of "grow your pups with bones' Sorry , I don't have time for more detail right now.

The theory that there is no dominance arose from this thinking: -Anything negative is bad, only positives are allowed -If you have "dominance" problems, then you require negatives to fix them -Since negatives are bad, but dominance problems require negatives, then the easiest way to deal with this is to deny the existence of dominance. Something like that. the other issue is that these PURELY positive trainers who will not indulge the idea of correcting a dog in any circumstances will not have any success training a difficult/stubborn/wilfull/seriously abnormal dog. Therefore, they only choose soft submissive willing dogs in the first place. I've even known some to rehome more difficult dogs because they had no success training them and they didn't want to admit defeat and try some corrections. Therefore, these trainers only have soft submissive dogs, and therefore - in their world - there are no dominant dogs!!! I think dropping the term "dominance" has cost the positive training movement dearly. Just because I believe that my dog is dominant doesn't mean that I have to treat him badly or even train with corrections. They don't seem to believe this. Also, by telling people that they can let the dogs sleep on the bed, go through doors first etc - they are allowing more behaviour problems to creep in - which means that it's more likely that harsh corrections will be resorted to to fix these problems. Much better to keep the dog off the bed and have a good trainign relationship than to allow him on the bed but have to correct him constantly in training because he doesn't respect you. ImO anyone who says that dominance heirarchy doesn't exist has their head in the sand.

Mollasseslass, in the BARF, the main thing to do is limit meat that is not on the bone. Then, make sure that your raw meaty bones have a fair bit of bone in them. If there is still a problem then you would need to reduce the meat, offal, RMB's and dairy/eggs adn increase teh amount of vegies in proportion. IT wouldn't be a very big change at all - just a small amount. The biggest thing to do would be to remove all of that dry food - dry is extremely concentrated and even a small bit to supplement the diet can make a big difference. I've never met a pup fed PURELY Barf that didn't grow slowly.

yeah, the growth rate is definitely too fast. 5 kg in 3 weeks! I would seriously cut back on the protein.

at 14 weeks 21kg I'd be concerned actually. i"ve got a 14 week old pointer here and he's only about 10kg. Now pointers are a bit smaller than GSD's and he's a bit on the skinny side, but 21kg is a lot! Kibble can make them grow too fast as it's too concentrated. I would remove that. if I were you, and perhaps cut down on his food just slightly overall.

I would be interested!

Pooka37 - I think it's the other way round actually. I am thoroughly convinced that dry food and bloat go hand in hand. Just think about it - the stomach twists because the ligaments are damaged which is caused by the stomach being weighed down repeatedly and weakened. A dog is not designed to have most of it's water intake in the form of drinking water. It's designed to have it in it's food form. so if we feed dry food - the dog has to drink SO much water to compensate for all that dryness - of course its stomach is going to be weighed down more heavily. If you feed fresh food or tinned food - all that extra water is not needed. Soaking the bisquits still means that the dog will have lots of water in his stomach so I think this would still likely cause bloat.

no, the cat and dog stuff is the same. I Actually used a cat one on my pup because he was too small for the smallest dog one we had at the time. And yes, Keirra's mommy, I'm with rappie - advocate contains advantage. So if she really is allergic to advantage then you'd better stop using advocate too!

if 1 or 2 chicken wings is ALL a dog gets except vegies then it will still lose weight. A fatless diet is very unbalanced and bad for a dog. The fat in a chicken wing is necessary and makes it balanced.

the homemade diet I suggested is based on barf - just simplified for weight loss.

I would actually avoid rice. I know it might make her feel full but, being a grain, it is ALL starch and starch = sugar and sugar unburned =FAT. So I would go away from it entirely. 2 small meals will definitley help. Oh, I should also add, pumpkin is also a starchy vegetable and thus sugary and fattening. A small amount is fine but I would stick with higher fibre/vitamin content vegies like broccoli, beans, carrot etc - and not too much of them either. Recent research has shown that using high fibre ingredients on dieting dogs to help them feel full can be counterproductive. Below is an extract taken from a pedigree webpage (of all things!) It's talking about weight loss diets for dogs. "Interestingly, these special diets don’t need to include high levels of fibre--as often found in human diet foods. Fibre is not necessary for weight loss in pets, and in large amounts, it can have side effects such as increased faeces and lack of interest in the food because of its poor taste." My guys hardly get any walking as such, although they run around with eachother a lot and train a lot too - but they are all so trim - the basis of their diet is raw meaty bones and vegetables. Of course they get added extras for balance but these are incidental.

Pal and Chum have got so much sugar and additives in them - no wonder he's overweight! The problem with changing over to a premium brand is that they are so much more concentrated so the dog would need much less food - like say 3/4 a cup - if 1-1.5 of pal is too much for him still now. My recipe for weight loss never involves dog food of any sort - as it's concentrated it's just so hard for the owner to judge. My weight loss recipe: -Everytime your dog looks at you pleading for a snack say "no, you're fat - you're not getting anything!" -Everytime you feel guilty about not giving him something (or saying the line above) tell yourself how guilty you should feel about how uncomfortable he is and how much shorter his life might be if he doesn't lose the weight. -as for food - well - for a dog his size - 2 chicken wings and 1/4 cup pulped vegies every day for up to 2 weeks. Also add a multivitamin if you're doing this for more than 2 weeks. NOTHING else, as far as food goes. If you must treat for training or such then try using carrots, fruits etc. Better yet, throw a toy instead. Dogs don't stay fat at my place for too long!!

Jeff, This is my first visit to the rainbow bridge forum - I thought it would make me too sad. Well, I was right. Seeing Wozza's name - how awful. I know it's been a while but I just had to post. I'd only met the guy for a second before I loved pharoah hounds. He was adorable - and the best behaved "escort" for a visitor from Brissie. I"m glad you have a new pharoah now and I hope he gives you as much joy as Wozza did - both at home and in the ring. Hugs Nicole

I have the following listed here: -clear eyes eye wash (I don't think that removes stains - just helps to prevent them building up) $10.95 125ml -Eye wipes - pack of 30 - also $10.95 -Top Dog tear stain remover - 125ml $4.65 So there definitely are some cheaper alternatives.

Rozzie, it's natural science glucosamine plus. I haven't seen it anywhere (and I've really scouted around) other than at our wholesalers. I would be happy to send it down to you if you wanted. It's not heavy so postage wouldn't be too much - at $12.20 a bottle plus postage it's still got to be way cheaper than sasha's blend. Darcy, yes, he does look like a very tall one. Still, Brittanies should be around 23 kg at their heaviest. I have trouble imagining that 35kg would ever be healthy for one, even a tall one. He doesn't look as obese as I first imagined though.

39kg for a brittany???? WOW! He's still got about 19kilos left to shed - that's going to be a big effort but I wouldnt' be surprised if he's a totally different dog after losing it all. In fact, I wouldnt' be surprised if he has no signs of arthritis at all after losing all that - considering that he is more than obese. Just wondering - I honestly cannot get my head around this - but how did he get so large in the first place? Was it hard to tell that he was gradually putting weight on, or just a case of unable to resist him? Sometimes when puppy carers return their dogs to me as adults they are a little overweight. I dont' understand the sympathy feeding thing - I just look at them pleading at me and say "no, you're fat - you're not eating." And I stick by it - they eat nothing but one chicken wing a day and vegetables for a week or more until they're not fat anymore. Seriously, with a dog so overweight he is likely to have serious complications with heart, joint troubles etc. If I were you I'd be aiming for pretty rapid weight loss. I'd feed him as above - 1 chicken wing (raw) per day plus 1/2 cup vegies (not potatoe or corn or other starchy ones) and NOTHING else for at least a month! (vitamin supplements perhaps a good idea). Anyway, I know I'm sounding negative - I just abhor an overweight dog - they look so slow and sad. You have indeed done very well with 3 kg down. How long did that take overall? Keep it up and good luck.