Lil Miss LeiLani

Oh really.... we were looking at using the Pawman - what did you think ?? My bestfriend used him for probs with her dog, and can't rave about him enough. i've written him an email to see when he is free, as I still haven't heard back from jane.

We just paid $200 for a consult for agression problems, but we weren't happy.I wrote them an email to ask for a refund, which they will give, hoewver Val wants to come out first, and she said I'm the first unhappy customer in 30yrs ! Perhaps other people aren't telling them they're not happy - or she's just saying that. Can i ask what you didn't like about it ? We thought about joining them actually !

Hi There, Did you meet with Jane ? How did it go ? Looking at getting her out, and would love some more feedback. C&Z

Thanks Husky87 ! Will await Jane's email !

Its funny how its only some kids. I really can't work it out - and do obviously need help. I think we need a trainer who can look at Zorro in differnet situations - not just with the kids next door. Of course he's going to be edgy around them. As I said, its not all kids.

Have you used Jane before? She must be brilliant with all these referrals. I just want to make the right decision - whether Jane or Pawman, I can't decide !! errr !!! It was the pawman though who said that Zorro might see the food scraps/sticks etc as gifts, not attacks. But again, without seeing us, its hard to say over the net/phone. I have emailed Jane & just waiting for a response. Val knows that she hasn't seen us yet & needs to see us first of course before giving her full opinion, as she is only going on the report from Ian.

Thanks Husky87! Oh, btw I checked out your blog - and reminisced over all the old ABC shows !! I loved Ghost Rider - and Degrassi High - I actually bought Degrassi Jnr High on dvd !! :-) Anyway.... I'm just speaking with Val on email at the moment. She thinks that perhaps our pack structure is still out of order. Perhaps Zorro doesn't have Fear Agression - maybe he is just unsure about children and needs to get used to them first ?

I've spoken to Val & told her it is not possible to involve the kids next door. I have also asked her for a refund. She said that she would like to see us & will refund the money, so we have decided to do this, to see what she says. She may assess the situation differently after seeing Zorro. She was only going by reading Ian's report. She may assess differently, so we'll see what she advises. She had the same problem with her border collie, so she has dealt with this before. Failing that, we will be contacting Jane or Grant - we're still not sure on which one. Possibly Jane as she does come highly recommended, however so does Grant. Grant also offers 12mths support, I'm not sure if Jane does. Husky87 - do you know what she includes in her package ?

Thanks Vickie. The trainer who did come out "ian" saw Zorro with the kids, and recommending meeting with the kids and getting them to throw treats to Zorro so he gets used to them. I have since had an email from Val (owner) saying the info Ian gave us was correct & would help with our problem. As she has now offered to come out to help and assess the situation, I thought maybe its worth giving her a try, as she is more experienced than Ian - she might have another way of handling the situation. She said to try it for 6wks and if it didn't work, we could contact someone else. In which case we will contact the Pawman or Jane Harper, as recommended. At this stage, i am probably leaning more towards the Pawman as he lives locally, and offers 12months ongoing support. Whereas Jane lives on the other side of Brisbane, about 1.5hrs away. My question is - should I give Val a go - or go straight to the pawman?

I know.... but perhaps he saw the food as gifts, and the empty drink bottle - as one of his fave toys is a drink bottle.

My gut doesn't know what to do for this !! I feel that we should get her opinion as we paid for her service, and I can understand their idea of thinking... however I"m also keen on trying someone else who might suggest something different, as perhaps there could be an underlying problem that isn't as simple as fear agression. Especially now that i've been told that Zorro would have seen the things coming over the fence as gifts - not attacks !! Makes my whole way of thinking changed ! Errr !! so frustrating !!!! I don't know what to do. He is usually such a good dog. Perhaps its our fault as we didn't socialise him enough with children when he was young. Perhaps its something the kids have done that we don't know of. Who knows !! How to correct a problem that you don't know how it started can't be easy.

I guess everyone has different opinions on how to correct problems - depending on the dog of course. I just wish it was an easier process. Val has offered to come over, and if the problem is still tehre after 6wks of us sticking to it, then obviously we should try elsewhere.

Thats very true Steve. Thats why we want to make the right decision. Its just hard getting there, thats all. Do you know much of Grant ?

Thanks Steve. I have contacted Jane, and as Val Bonney has offered to come out (as well as give us a refund) i thought to perhaps have her come out to see what she could do, as its not going to cost us anymore. Either that, or get Jane or Grant the Pawman - as they both come recommended. Its so hard to know who is good, and who isn't. Word of Mouth is the best advertising, and all these 3 (inc Val Bonney) have come recommended. Its weird... Val says to confront the fear is best, whereas both Jane & Grant say its not a good idea.

We had Bonnies come out, and he told us to get the help of the kids next door and get them to give him treats etc, so he would see this as kids being good. I've emaied Bonnies & the owner, Val Bonney, has offered to come out to see us and develop a plan, as she believes what her Trainer told us, would help immensely. I've heard that she is highly respected in the dog behavioural world. Is that correct ?

Hi again.. Sorry, we are quite confused at the moment. We have Zorro, who is child agressive - more than likely fear agressive. Basically, he never had a problem with children, & I don't know if its coincidence, but we caught the kids from next door throwing things over the fence, and found food scraps, rocks, sticks, bottles etc in our yard. So we figured that they were obviously teasing the dog, or perhaps something might have hit him. One behaviourist said that Zorro wouldn't have seen this as being attacked, but as treats. This makes sense too, but we just don't know. We've been getting mixed messages from trainers & behaviourists, and thought if any of you have had a dog with this problem & have rectified the problem, what were you told to do and how did it work??? We had a behavouirist come out and he suggested we meet with the kids every couple of days, and have them throw treats to Zorro, as he needs to face his fear. This made sense to us, however others suggested this could make things worse as if he is fear agressive, he shouldn't be put in this situation too soon. This made sense too !! Other people told us the behaviourist who came out has no idea, so i wrote them an email this morning asking for a refund, and the owner and head behaviourist there has offered to come out, but agrees with her employees method. I haven't accepted yet.... We are just so confused & don't know now. Thanks everyone.... Christal & Zorro.

I read somewhere that you can hold their front paws, until they become uncomfortable - not hurting them, but to make them not want to do it again. you can also raise one knee, so they cant be up against you.

Thanks for all your replies everyone. I understand that by putting him in a situation with children will probably make things worse, as our trainer suggested. Vickie - I believe that if your dog has your 100% trust, he will know that you will never do anything to hurt him. Which of your dogs has this problem ? How old when the problems started happening - was your dog tormented by children to make him this way, or something he always had ? Our dog was fine with children, until the kids next door started throwing things over the fence to/at him. Its almost as if he needs to have his mind cleared of this past experience so he can forget that children are bad. Almost like we need a hypnotist !!

That sounds great. I think we perhaps need to put Zorro in a situation where there are kids around, and correct him when he starts to misbehave. But as we don't have kids or really know any, it is hard. When we take him to the markets of a sunday, there are lots of kids around, but he doesn't even pay attention to them. When we go to obedience classes, there are a couple of kids there, if they come too close, he starts to get funny, and same with kids at the beach on the weekend. Not at the dog park though...

...jinx !! lol

Makes me think that maybe we should try someone else.... Jane seemed lovely in her emails, and willing to help. Might even tell her the situation and that we've had someone out already and what he said, and see what she thinks. Perhaps we just need to socialise him with more children and show him they are not all bad. How did you work through with Micha ?

To quote what the behaviourist said.. "If they (kids next door) are unwilling to work with you, I have a concern that Zorro may never overcome his aggression with children and you may need to look at alternative housing for him." I couldn't believe that. I was so shocked !!

Poodlefan - obviously he is agressive towards children due to the past experience, but in general is not an agressive dog. I think it is a fear agression, as he seems quite scared of them. The other day when we were hopping in the car, the kids were out the front, and zorro couldn't hop in the car quick enough to escape them ! Husky87 - I did hear back from jane, but she was $198, so we ended up going with Bonnies as they too were reccomended to us from our obedience classes, and they operate in our area. I just can't afford to spend another $200 to be told the same thing. But on the other hand, if our problem can be fixed differently & more conveniently, then it would of course be worth it.

Thanks Poodlefan. Since speaking to the kids' parents, the problem kids no longer play along that side of the house, and we haven't seen much of them at all lately. They've been very good. (shame its too late now!). The behaviourist came from Bonnies (Val Bonney) - his name is Ian Wilson. I think he's been working with Bonnies for a long time, and has border collies also. I think in a way it was a waste of $200 as alot of the stuff I already knew from research on the net, it was mainly to see if Zorro was an agressive dog, which he isn't, and to sort out this problem with the kids. The problem is, is our side of the house where the outdoor area is, is where Zorro's bed is, so the covered area looks straight on to the fence where the house is. As we have a small block, whereever we were to put zorro, he would be able to see the house where the kids are. We thought about putting him inside all day, but thats not fair. Theres no area we can put him that he can't see the area. We do have a small (about 1m wide) concrete pathway up the otherside of the house, but thats not a good place for a dog, theres no shade, no grass or anything, so I don't think that will work ! I just don't know what to do !

Hi everyone, I posted a few months ago about the problem we are having with Zorro, and agression towards children. We did get a behaviourist out last month, and he told us to go outside with Zorro, and the kids from next door, for about 4-5mins at a time, about 3 times a week. As we get home in the evening, and the kids aren't out playing at that time, espeically now with the warmer weather, they are in the pool, its very hard for us to do this. However, Zorro obviously does have a problem with all kids now, becuase of the ones next door, and we want to fix this so it doesn't get worse. He hates all children now, and is uncomfortable around them, starts trying to pull away from the leash, and starts barking and wanting to lunge at them. We never used to have a problem, but because of the kids tormenting him in the past, it is now carved in his memory. What can we do ??? He is great with all people & other dogs, strangers no worries and wants to give everyone a cuddle & a kiss, but have a kid around, and its a different story. As we don't have any children in the family, he hasn't had much socialization with kids, and since the ones next door were mean to him, perhaps he now thinks all children are like that. He is a desexed 10month old (nearly 11mth) male border collie. Please help!!! We don't want any problems or to have to give him away or worse, have him put down because he has bitten someone!