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First two was "break" and my next was "free". However if we are tugging etc and I want her to latch on again or to drive to a thrown toy I do say " Get It". I'd personally not use OK or Yes as I say them all the time. I like "party", could be fun to use it next. :)

I think Wendy is saying she doesn't know who Eddy is? I can't remember how to spell his last name but he is involved with the Hawkesbury Agility Club. Try the club unless somebody has his details for you. Spacing ( ADAA or ANKC) can be important but less so if your dog is really little like mine are. I did use garden stakes with poly pipe over them for my little ones but soon I'll need better ones for the kelpie. Long handled screwdrivers is a good idea. I've made some with a large nail/spike set in instant putty in a poly pipe lid or cap. Then the cap is clued to the length of pipe and you have a pole to stick into the ground. I use a length of canvas material with pre-measured holes so I get spacing easier. Best thing is these home made ones can go out easily so you can weave in all sorts of places. Taking the weaves out and training elsewhere is a great help. Happy hunting

If you are saying he is sound asleep in the morning and gets woken up to get taken outside...... I'd probably get your hubby to say the same release word and get him up. I don't think I'd use food rewards though in this instance. Interested in what others say as this is an interesting question which never faced me. This made me think of something I learnt recently. When you are teaching others or your own young dog maybe to wait for rewards like food, games like Your Choice, and sometimes food is accidentally dropped. It was suggested if the food falls and the inexperienced dog is going to get it before you can stop them. Just give the command to "get it" or whatever your release word is.The dog still gets the food you didn't mean to drop but at least the training is consistent. Good luck with it

Seems like there is a fair bit of change ATM with contact behaviour. It didn't occur to me to do different things - a stopped on the DW and running on the A frame. Now that's doing my head in. My first two dogs were small and what help I had training advised just run contacts cause they are small and won't jump off. I moved and had the opportunity for a very experienced trainer. I learnt the GD system and both dogs sped up heaps.. Then I taught the stopped contact with a drop and a nose touch. This did slow one dog down on the walk and made him stop on the A frame. I took this as confusion about the behaviour and tried hard to solve this. Eventually I decided to let him run his contacts as he was faster and keener this way. It just meant at times you couldn't change direction too much until he finished the contact. My chi cross was a bit different as she either wouldn't start or just runs flat out the whole course. I'd just let her burn round and contacts were never a problem. Off to a trial tomorrow so might watch what others are doing. Thanks for the discussion Will look up some of the methods mentioned. Well done Agility Dogs---Those courses showed the "back- jumping" I've read about. The dog having to jump from the far side of the jump. love the sheltie having something to say as she runs round.

Congrats DiscoDobe on Elsie's progress. Sounds like she is having fun. I don't know many people actually teaching running contacts by any method. besides the hit and miss option. Why did you decide to use running and how is it going? Does your training club support RC's or not? Just really curious as I have a young kelpie about to start contact training but I have to decide what method. I have only used a stopped contact before and probably will do some type of stopped contact again as I could need the time to get in place for the rest of the course. Thanks

My young kelpie likes to chase a thrown ball etc and that's the fun part. She comes back but when she gets about 10 metre to 2 metres away she thinks about it getting thrown again and drops it. She is fixated on the ball, frisbe whatever, but I wanted it at my feet. If I am just sitting in the yard she will try and dump things on my lap etc. So if I pay little attention she will return the item. definitely not good enough and particularly doing agility where she drives to a tug/toy and instead of coming to tug immediately she fluffs around first. To improve fetch I went to a small room to start with. I dropped a toy on the ground. She picked it up and I swapped it for a treat as suggested in another post. As the dog knows a nose touch to my hand I did a few of these and then required her to nose touch with toy in the mouth. I finally had her putting a toy in my hand. I did this in different areas until taking it outside and doing it on our walks. Still not her strong desire to give things back but definitely improved her returns. And she makes me laugh as I ask for her to bring me something and sometimes she tosses it at me instead of putting it in my hand. Specially if she really wants me to have something. However if other dogs are involved it gets messy. Really difficult with two at once sometimes. If another dog is playing she is more interested in that dog and not me which at times I don't like. And the dogs get possessive over the item or me. As Flash gets older will the other dog get rougher? Is it too much a pain to play fetch separately? I'd play fetch with the young dog only and find something else for the older one or play separately. I sometimes let both of mine go with a longer tug toy, then it turns into a tugging game and we all play. Interested in others ideas on your questions.

Not that unusual. I thought my dogs knew their release but you can test this by having the dog in position and simply say the release word with no movement at all. Many dogs do simply stay in position. My instructor devised some exercises to teach the release. So that eventually on release the dogs would jump out of position regardless of your body movement or lack hereof. I'd go back to the beginning again with the release word. I am not sure if the word you were using is poisoned and you should change the release word but somebody more experienced can help you there. How did you teach the release word originally? Pity I can't find those exercises now but I think from memory the dog is in position (sit, stay whatever). Say release and lure movement maybe with food and body movement. Continue sometimes using a lure and sometimes movement until dog understands he can move on release. Then gradually remove all movement. Does that make sense. I'd be sure the dog gets it from sit,drop or stand in all places before putting in equipment. Hopefully your instructor gave you some help too? I can't tell from a post but you mention your dog doesn't have the perfect stays. Maybe there is some confusion on your dogs part about the criteria of the stay. And changing your signal because the dog is confused is probably not a good idea and may have confused your dog more. We're all guilty of "helping" the dog now and again but it does come back to bite you. You might want to ask about ways to proof your stays if you think this is what might be causing the confusion? Lucky dogs are forgiving and you can simply retrain. Your dog gets more chance to earn more treats so he won't care. :) I try to really make sure the dogs know that word. I used to set the dog up and then give different incorrect release words to see if the dog will break by mistake. Dogs can learn the exact word. It was really tempting to say the fake release word with less excitement or volume but that defeats the purpose. So you'd yell chair, table, fence, whatever silly word you can think of and the dog has to get it right. We try and train the job, move it around and then test the dogs understanding, "proofing" the task. Good luck! Hope you get some useful advice.

Had to laugh at cow hooves... my dogs used to gather when the farrier came for the shaved hoof. However the GSD once had a complete cows leg. Gave me a heart attack until we found out it was from a deceased neighbours cow that had been buried next door. My new kelpie used to drive me batty bringing in bones .. to her bed and my bed. The other dogs didn't do this althou since she has arrived she has lead them astray.

Thanks for the choices. I think the walky dog thing might suit. Used to having the lead from under the seat anyway. Haven't seen the springer one but will shop around and definitely get something. happy riding all :)

I am interested in this post as I recently started biking with my kelpie. My friend bikes with her agility dog for fitness and ties the dog under the seat. She says that she feels she has the most balancing power this way. I do the same althou at times I also hold the lead to guide the dog thru gates or fences on the bike track. She is very good and well behaved but the biggest issue is that she is a big scaredy cat!!! So if a dog runs out or barks she will run out thru fear. And if she really spins out she can get across the front of the bike. I don't normally go fast, it is more that I can't run with her at her trot. She will cover a lot of ground in her trot. So I normally bike along in a slow gear, however at times I can't resist and we have a short race. She listens when I tell her how fast or slow to go. So I have been thinking of getting a walky thing. Would be safer as she doesn't pull normally but in a panic situation would it prevent her from getting in front of the bike? Would she run into the bike if on on walky thing? I saw some youtube clips and the walky thingo seems pretty bendy? Any suggestions ? I am going to visit the endurance thread as well. But paddles - You said you didn't like it as your dog nearly had you off... how did that happen? Any advice appreciated.

Double post sorry. Must be bedtime :)

Mogwai.. How are you going with your kelpie? I have a 12 month old kelpie, and what a first year it's been. I am not used to working dogs but luckily have access to some experienced help. My dog will work for food in most cases. However I am taught mainly by trainers who want ( basically insist) that tugging be the main re inforcement. My dog will work with both BUT during our walks each day, herding behavior will tend to creep in. She likes working at a distance so much that agility will be interesting. I'll say tunnel and she could end up 2 courses over! I have always tried to watch that my dog doesn't become obsessive about anything in particular. We play with balls and a frisbee but I watch that she gets a bit of everything while tugging is our main game. When Jade is wanting to watch another dog ( more due to a nervous re action at times ) or more commonly, wanting to herd my smaller kelpie x - ALL food desire goes out the window. You could poke food into her and she'd spit it out. She notices everything and will fixate on lots of things she finds weird like a lady on a walker, a jogger lying down pedalling in the air, etc. My trainer follows the Susan Garrett Ruff Love idea basically and one of the first things she had suggested when my pup was still much younger was a halti ( gentle leader to be exact). We use food to teach heeling etc but as the dog grows they like watching what is going on around them so much more. Food doesn't rate when the environment is so much more rewarding and easy to enjoy. I had always disliked halti's and didn't use them, my smaller dogs always focused on me. My kelpie was another story, life was so exciting. I introduced the halti as I was taught and this is a slow carefull procedure. It meant that she couldn't decide to look about where- ever she liked and I controlled her head as well. She was no longer able to self reward by looking about or pulling. She was also rewarded with food while wearing the halti. Put a halti on her and her response became much calmer and she was clever enough that no force except 2 fingers on the lead was ever needed. The halti was only used as an aid and she doesn't wear it ATM althou if warranted I'd use it again. I did have CU and a few other good books to help me in the earlier days. I did LAT but mainly to get her to look at scary stuff and be rewarded,not sure how it would help with stickiness. We have built a lot of foundation stuff but control is always something we work on. One of my biggest training tools is finding what she wants the most and using that as the reward. She wants to go off lead, give me something at heel, impress me. She wants to jump thru a tree or go out the back gate, give me a something like a nose touch or a drop. She really likes to go round trees and "balance" them, I let her do this if she does some other stuff I want first. I recall her constantly only to let her go back (like a bat outa hell) on a verbal release. She offers some behaviors like getting on cement blocks,paws on poles and paws on the crossings button to earn food as well. In fact if she checks in from off lead to my side she might get a treat if I notice her. I find she wants to do something on a walk, I just need to make sure it's my idea, otherwise she'd find something to do. But its hard and I'm not that crash hot. If I ask her to come and its not 100% , she's back on lead. I try to make recalls fun by doing thru the legs each side or whatever I can think of. She could get another chance later to do it better. She likes to run at my slower small dog, probably to piss him off so he runs with her and that is a big no No. On lead for that althou if she is just starting to crouch and stalk I use this chance to get a "stop", a drop and reward that instead. Once released she's forgotten to get the other dog. Sometimes I simply nick off or distract her momentarily to break the stalk pose. BUt its hard, some days I think we've lost it and then she stuns me with her good behavior. One day something is a big problem and the next week, its gone away. So don't worry, least we can always get more chances to change the behavior. So I'd be very interested in how you are getting along. I was also happy to hear that some think herding is a good idea. I plan on agility but she was made to herd. I was told with her, herding could cause more problems. Still considering what to do with that.

How is your dog going now? Can I say it is wonderful that you are committed to this dog. He is lucky as so many people don't. I adopted a dog with known SA 9 or so years ago. I was told I had to get two dogs but that wasn't an isssue as I wanted two anyway. But of course another dog doesn't soilve anything. He was my second dog and I really didn't know what SA was but the first day I left for work, me and the whole street found out what SA was! :) My guy is smaller so not so destructive as yours. I consulted with a behaviourist straight away and went on from there. He used to really go to town and get out of any place unless Fort Knox. This dog had partially sawed off canines from frantically trying to saw/chew wire fencing. He has been known to bail out windows etc. Just wanted to let you know he did get better. Life was fairly normal and only things like packing to go on hols or moving house set the SA off again. Its been so OK now that when I brought a new dog recently I changed some of the lifestyle of my dogs. The introduction of a new active puppy (kelpie) and the changes to routine all seemed to go OK. Dogs got on well. I went to work each day and had dogs bedded down (crates available open )in the spare bedroom. I put out treat toys, plastic bottles with fruit/treats inside and an apple for the pup. Dogs had house access but not unlimited due to the pup. I only found out this week when I checked with my neighbours about a night I was away that my dogs have been " really naughty " barking lately. I immediately thought it was the kelpie that i try so hard to keep worked and happy. I was told it wasn't her, she was fine, it was the little ones. After a lot of questions i worked out that when I left, 2 mins later the noise started. I knew straight away who that was! I had no idea as he didn't start till I was gone awhile. I simply left my dog with SA the next morning with access to my bedroom again. On returning home, the neighbours reported no noise at all. I wish they had told me earlier as I was upset that my dogs had been a problem. This seems to have worked and I check with next door regularly. If the dogs behaviour had continued I would consider drugs while I addressed the issue. Did you get a pen or find a way to keep your dog safe? I also wondered about the rest of the family. I was alone so my dog was fixated with me. Would including the rest of the family in the dogs life more lessen his fixation with you? Just curious if this would help? So that someone else feeds him, walks him as well. Hope you are getting along OK.

HI I have a brown and cream girl kelpie about 8 months. I am lucky in that we do have some experienced agility trainers in my area. We have two clubs and one offers a very structured program learning Greg Derrett's system. I brought some books (reccommended 2 me )that gave me some help when I brought my kelpie. One was Control Unleashed The Puppy Program by Leslie McDevitt. And The Focused Puppy by Deborah Jones, Judy Keller. And to balance things out i also read Ruff Love by Susan Garrett but that's another gameplan altogether. However it was something to consider and it had some good games in it. I also just purchased Susan Salo puppy jumping and will buy Susan Garretts One JUmp. Bearing in mind the jump bar doesn't really exsist, they use a "bump" on the ground. Your pup isn't old enough yet but will be before you know it. I find time is flying by and so much to teach. I don't feel a need to hurry and there is none. I did/do concentrate with my pup with socialisation and taking her everywhere. Agility dogs need to be comfortable in all sorts of situations. My pup didn't get a lot of socialisation so to me this was paramount. Building a reward system is also really important. Tug, tug tug and take it everywhere. Congradulations BTW. Your pup is lovely.

Heaps of good advice here already. Some things I wish someone told me first - If you have more than one dog teach different release words so later you can release dogs at different times. My first two had "Break" but limits the opportunity to play with the release. Sometimes I like to get both to sit/drop. Release just one dog and after a few metres get that dog to sit. Walk further and release the other dog. He runs past the first dog I released who (hopefully)is still sitting. Like playing leapfrog. Also I taught both dogs to STAY. Not knowing that its better to teach ...STAY means I will come back to you and you will not come to me. WAIT means I will call you to do something in a minute ( or so). And in regards to a drop going back to a sit. My young kelpie has a default position of a drop. So my pup will drop before everything. Meaning as a position to hold while waiting to work or tug, whatever. I could tell her to sit if I wanted but unless told otherwise she will drop. It seems to come naturally to her anyway. So sometimes she drops from her sit when I did ask for sit. I could lure her with food and with a sweeping motion, palm up, lift my hand up in front of her and she should rise to a sit. But someone (obedience person) also suggested step forward a little into there space. Even touch their toes gently if needed. Once they get it you would fade the food and the movement forward. Nobody else has mentioned this so wondered if anybody else does this or is it not considered the norm? I find stand the hardest to teach as I have little dogs too who are always trying to look into your fACE. AS the head comes up, the bum goes down. Fun little buggers aren't they. Good luck. Zug Zug - I like your explanation of sit/drop/stand exercises. Will give mine a little go at that. Thanks

Hi I know exactly how you feel! I am lucky enough to live in an area where we have three agility clubs.... and all have different plans. And come to think of it .. we have two obedience clubs as well. There is some history to the creation of this many clubs and I am fairly new to the area but all I can say is.. More access to TRAINING. YAH!! I attend four clubs, two agility and two obedience, and teach at two agility clubs ( pretty new to teaching thou). Getting along at all can be a minefield but worth the effort. Some clubs have very different teaching ideas, at direct opposites at times. I remind myself to appreciate that all trainers are volenteers. Be seen to listen even if at times you think the opposite. I am always polite and try to be attentive regardless. However if they are doing something i don't want to do I can manage to either not do it or excuse myself for a second. This happens mainly in obedience at the moment as I have a kelpie pup and I play tug to reward periodically. So I walk away and play until I join the class again. Classes go too long for a baby and i want perfect attention but can only do short bursts. I also reward a lot as I've been taught (agility) and one trainer disagrees. As you say it is better if the club knows you and you at least have experience competing etc. Maybe I wouldn't have emailed personally but spoken face to face. You do have to suck it up and try to get along. I understand you are not incorrect but you need to make peace in order to get what you can from what training (equipment!)is available. I would explain you intend to train seriously and want to follow the SG method. Ask to attend class and participate when able and not join in if exercise unsuitable. Explain you appreciate their efforts but are only comfortable doing some things for now. Downplay the extra stuff you want and at first you may need to make do until you prove yourself. I also think that if you are seen to be always ready to set up and help out, people are more accepting of you. Agility clubs LOVE you if you get there and set up etc. I have had to step out once in obedience and explain I didn't agree with the exercise and found it dangerous (very hard to do ) and another time I simply did the exercise but did it very half hearted and avoided the issue. I attend a fantastic agiltiy club with a structured lesson plan. Foundation is really hard core and follows a handling system. It is so good and I am so lucky as are my dogs who benefit. But we have another club where they promote agility as being more fun and a big game. Recently due to inability to get a chief instructor, the club decided that a roster of different instructors was the way to go. Not surprising that no one wants to be chief instructor as its hard work and you don't get to train your own dogs. Funny plan but so far it is working, least the club is still going and people are still enjoying agility. I said I would help here even thou I train differently. Many people do only want to get out and have a play with their dogs. At the more serious club most drop out due to the massive ammount of homework (training wise). So maybe each club has its place and different clubs provide different things to people. I see you have another club to go to. Good luck with that. I would try and maintain good terms with the old club too. Never know when you want another club to play on their equipment. I built equipment at home, even if it is only a smaller cheap version. Planks of wood for contacts, two planks on a foot stool made a low A frame. Used a cat tunnel for a tunnel as had little dogs. Made the table. Always have a clear plan in mind and don't be swayed by peer pressure. Just be aware of your goals. Happy training.

If its any help -- When I started to teach my small dogs the cloth tunnel I borowed a short tunnel (althou you could improvise) and sent the dogs thru using different material over the end. At first I used a light material and then put 2 light materials together. Next I made the material heavier until the dogs understood they are meant to push thru the tunnel chute. I used a sheet, a tarp and eventually added a blanket. I know my homemade chute was shorter but the principal of pushing under material is still there and it worked for me. One of my dogs is 4 kg and some chutes are heavier than others, if it gets twisted a bit she really has to push thru it. If your dog goes in but then comes out maybe she just doesn't quite get it. Good luck with it.

My friend is heading off to a herding clinic soon with his young kelpie. I will tell him about this clinic too as its much closer to us. I have a young kelpie and plan to do agility eventually but herding was suggested to me as well. I think my girl would love it. How old should dogs be before they attend a clinic and what skills do they need to be stable in before they can benefit? Do people camp at the property or where do they stay?

Well done Amypie!! Trixie is a young dog and indoors is a bit different. I know the Tamworth indoors area spun mine out a bit at first. I'd be proud of those results. well done. Good luck!

Congradulations Kavik Sounds like your training efforts have paid off. I take it your lovely boy Kaos is leaving the baby sitting up to the humans now. Hope to see you soon. I am going to a trial locally tomorrow which makes a nice change. Well done!

Hi Cleo's Mum How is the training going? I haven't been online in ages and just wrote a long post to your topic which I have just wiped somehow? I have a 5 month old brown and cream girl kelpie currently lying on my floor. What a handful. Easier for me as she was 9 weeks when I got her and as I own my home, allowed inside and I can do as I like. This pup is the main reason I haven't been online! I also have 2 other dogs althou not sure if that makes it easier or not sometimes.She is currently chewing a food stuffed toy and being very good. Tonite I removed the pen which was against the lounge. I put it there to stop her jumping up constantly and as she is more settled now she seems to be staying off it. Basically I rewarded her for doing things I like - lying on a mat, sleeping on a mat or being quiet/still. I taught her a "off" command as well for those times she did jump up. I rewarded things I saw I liked and if she was too wild or barked, she was crated until she settled. Lucky for me she settles in the crate really fast. She is also being trained continually every day and so she is beginning to understand now things flow in my house. Crate training an older dog might be different from a pup so maybe you could post another question if you are uncertain? I shaped her with a crate and taught her Crate Games as per Susan Garretts methods. Have you moved into your own place or do you rent? OOps and now she is going in the crate as she is on the lounge and didn't get off when asked. My pup is in a crate in the car and at trials. I also crate her at night while my other two are allowed on the bed. Eventually she won't be but until she is trained it is easier. However the few times I have let her out on weekends early she returns to the crate and doesn't join us on the bed anyway. If she is wingeing or barks in her crate she is covered. She is not impressed right now althou she is being pretty quiet about it. Time for bed anyway now. Hope your pup is going OK? They are a handfull. So nice your pup will be allowed inside. My family aren't into dogs and dogs are not allowed inside. I like my dogs company. Better go as mine is falling asleep in the crate out here now and she needs to get up and move into the bedroom crate. :)Have fun, enjoy your pup.

Thanks for your replies. Nekhbet would be very knowlegeable so that's a good idea. And my friend can check out that site. Becks I don't think there was a break in attempt. Interesting question about dog behaviuor if returned with a visitor. But I might guess it would be a bit like my dogs. While my dogs get out a lot they can be territorial in some circumstances. I know if I walk off my property and then I come home with people and their dogs --- no problem. But if my friends and their dogs just came into my house it is might get a bit rowdy at first. Makes me wonder enough that I'd try this to see what happens. However my friend will have to decide what he wants to do next after seeking some more advice. Thanks again.

Hi all, My workmate has a young Dogue de Bordeaux and he asked me recently about his behaviour. Firstly he said his young dog was timid and shy of strangers. I had some advice but a few days later we were talking about him again. Apparently when this dog goes out he is perfectly fine. At friends places he is calm and relaxed. Friendly and OK with other dogs. My friend says a small dog latched on to his face at a park and he just walked away. The timid shy behaviour only happens at his home. When the dog is in the backyard if anyone comes to visit, the dog runs away. Not worried about dogs but people BTW. He seems timid and scared. He might approach eventually but is unsure. My friend was concerned he might react badly if cornered in this situation. He also owns a staffy male that loves people anytime. Although he is dog aggressive and is always walked on lead. Isn't this behaviour a bit back to front? (the dogue de bordeaux that is ) Why would a dog be more scared at home? Is it a territory thing? Any thoughts? And how would you try to resolve this? For dogs out and about I would think you reward the dog in situations that the dog dislikes and try to make a bad thing more favourable to the dog. So dog relates good things with a experience he used to dislike. So in this dog's case would you reward any action on the dogs part that is positive when the dog has visitors. Starting with visitors at a distance and rewarding the dog for being relaxed. And working on decreasing distance and getting the dog more comfortable. Would you let visitors treat too if safe to do so. Any advice appreciated. I know a dog behaviour specialist would help but not sure myself how severe the dogs fear is and that decision can be made by my friend. We were more curious about what would make a dog more reactive at home? I know hard to comment without seeing the dog and the situation but thought might ask anyway. Thanks

Haven't been in the forums lately but a friend today mentioned this thread. Today after a long absence I went back to a local dog leash free beach. Due to all the problems listed on this thread I just took one dog, leaving one at home. I hate this and so does the dog left behind. But as I explained to my friend who was worried when she saw I was missing a dog, I can only keep one dog safe at a time. She thought this was sad and it is. I used to love walking my dogs on the beach but now I am too scared. Due to some past incidents I am so nervous and particularly certain types of dog make me panic. Unreasonable maybe but the truth. I can only enjoy and relax a walk if I have one to worry about, who I can pick up if attacked. I know picking up dogs is bad but getting mauled is ugly too. We now have a new on lead beach. I have started going here late in the afternoon where it is really quiet and you can at least move away if you see some dogs coming that you would rather avoid. Only been a few times but not sure how this will work. If dogs are off leash you should be able to request the owner put them on leash. Owners won't have the come back that "its off lead so my dogs can do anything". I will see how it goes. I am about to get a third dog and I wonder how do walk all three safely.An issue I have here is rude uncontrolled dogs let loose in the land near where I live that is on leash area. People think that cause it is a big fairly quiet area they can let their unsocialised possibly aggressive dogs off. The problem with this is that it is getting busier due to new bike tracks and it seems dogs and people are popping up everywhere.Trees hide the tracks and what is approaching is hard to see. Hard to find a safe place to walk. Why do owners think it is their right to let their dogs off regardless of if they are safe or not. I sometimes meet a lady and her 2 bc's, her dogs are rude and have been known to attack smaller dogs. They leave my dogs alone but she is tempting fate by still allowing them off. I tried to help her but she isn't really keen to do anything. I can't get over now so many people don't train their dogs! Its not that bloody hard and part of owning a dog. I hear others mention carry a stick or kick other dogs. I have thought of this but its harder than it looks to stop a dog hell bent on getting one of mine. And some owners could become even more vicious than their dogs if you threaten their dog. Otherwise I'd want a cattle prod. And if i get loud and yell my dogs would be more worried as I don't normally yell. Winge over. Thanks.

Creating drive is a hurdle for me so can I just go back to the tugging idea for a sec? I am not familiar with SG'S " don't wanna don't hafta" but I think my dog is. I trained with food rewards and my dog was too timid and worried to tug with me. He did improve and he is 8 yrs now. In my efforts lately to see what ticks his boxes I revisited the whole tug thing. My agility club is very keen that ALL dogs tug to the extent that now dogs must tug before going up classes. He likes toys but he happily unstuffs them or fleas them at home. So I used food to shape the tug. Rewarded just a touch to the toy and then asked for more. I think the light bulb went on and he started tugging. As always a legend in the living room but not outside. He is also vocal while tugging. If I gave him the choice like some others have mentioned I really don't think he would have ever tugged. I continued to encourage tugging with food. Our club instructor tells us never to give the dog a choice. If I offer the tug, the dog MUST interact with the tug. And this is where it got hard. It took a lot for me to offer the tug in a NFC run in a trial. I nearly fell over when he tugged before, during and after. I built up the tugging gradually but eventually I had to offer tugging in more situations. Starting with outside, on walks , training and at trials. At the first trials he did refuse and I had to take him away and annoy him until he did tug but I was really uncomfortable getting him to tug. I really didn't get it. Recently at training he also had a NO moment. To get him to tug I have to persist with annoying him with the tug until he gets shitty and then attacks the tug. He latches on and also gets really growly and vocal. This particular time I had an audience and it took a lot of annoying him till he tugged. Enough annoying that his growling and snapping was maybe not so pretend. But he did tug and was eventually rewarded. I was stuffed! A few minutes later I picked up another toy and he flew at it and happily went mental. ? A better toy? more open to tugging? Or simply still pissed off? The tugging is happening more and more often. At trials at least he wakes up before his run. I was told to try tugging after his run before the food reward ( does this now! ), to use a tug toy and then change to another and to tug near open treats etc. So this is going OK. I also use a longer rope tug so that I can annoy him around his back end cause it gets him going and he doesn't accidently get my hand. Has anyone else had to resort to this sort of "annoying" to get tugs? If your dog is not a natural tugger how else could you get it happening? Is it as worthwhile for dogs? I do think it is worthwhile for him and me to some extent. I think I need to find out about the TID as well!