myValkyrie

Then why show this breed? If a judge can't touch them, then how can they be judged? It's a hands on sport. How long should a Maremma be given in the ring to make up it's mind if it will allow another person to approach it? The Maremma wasn't the only dog to react in such a fashion, commentators also remarked on other dogs being overawed. Should this allowance be given to other breeds who also would prefer not to be examined by a stranger. Maybe Maremma's shouldn't be shown at all and should be left in the paddock to work? I didn't say don't show them - I simply pointed out the difference between attributes that assist the dog's function & attributes that are rewarded in the showring. Nor did I say they couldn't be touched - but that they would not welcome it.

I believe a couple of mine would have behaved in a similar fashion in that environment - some would have been more assertive about their space. I've seen a Maremma sent from the showring for a lot less & been sent myself for a dog objecting to being handled - both dogs were exceptional workers & did get a little better re being handled but were never even close to being happy about it. My dogs are first & foremost working dogs - their contribution to what I do is enormous & I can't overstate how much we value them. For my 2 cents worth, the attributes rewarded in the showring - particularly the sweet, bouncy, outgoing temperament & the big , fluffy glamorous coat - are not necessarily attributes you appreciate in a good working dog. IMHO the Maremma as a breed is fortunate that it has, at present, a solid future performing it's original function & doing a great job - if in producing that, the downside is a dog that is not particularly suited to showing & being handled by strangers, I'm good with that

They are considered separate varieties in the USA - they only compete against one another at group level - & you're right, it's odd :)

All About the Bull Terrier - Tom Horner

So sorry to hear this - such a lovely lady

I am struggling with this at the moment. Snowy will only let children in her paddock, some select women and no men. I am feeling a bit stuck about going away for a weekend. I have to get a family member to take care of the dogs (& the rest of the horde) if we go away for a weekend showing or whatever. Mine are tolerant of what I accept, up to a point (eg I accept that my neighbour musters with a quad bike, the dogs are convinced it's a goat murdering beast coming to eat their charges) - but if we are not there, they make their own call as to whether something is acceptable or not. I have one girl who is a real social butterfly, adores being a house dog, loves visitors, seeks pats & cuddles, big smiler etc - put her in a paddock with kidding does & nobody but us is getting in that paddock, no matter how many times they've been introduced.

That's really interesting - I find the Maremmas much more devoted to a specific territory whereas the Kangal/Anatolian's territory is extremely fluid ie. wherever she & what she perceives as her flock, happen to be

These guys are a bit further west from us & have made really good use of Maremmas in a large scale grazier situation. We have them on a much smaller scale & with goats rather than sheep but they still make a huge difference to losses. We have found they work best in pairs or threes with their stock - foxes & wild dogs will quickly learn to simply lure a single dog away from the mob. They don't herd their stock but will lead them ie out to feed & back to their camp at night and will also bunch them up & push them to somewhere they consider safe if there is a threat.

If it wins enough I'd say most folk will think its good enough. Yes they will but it's not necessarily so - this tends to happen when judges penalise faults rather than rewarding virtues.

Sending healing vibes for your girl auto - fingers crossed for you

Just wanted to say thanks for the link Jed - fascinating stuff

It could also depend on whether you are breeding for show or performance. Definately - & your signature says it all Janba

In some breeds, all breeds show results mean nothing or close to it - specialty show results are the go. In others, what is most important is soundness & working ability - I have a bitch here that is a brilliant working dog but sucked as a showdog - for the very qualities that make her the working dog she is. Shows are only as good a guide as the judge on the day.

The analogy to big cats is very apt. I have lived both in town with my Kangal and on small acreage (40 acres) - town was a nightmare, small acreage is a little easier. I'd think about having another if I had a much larger property.

Here's my version of your scenario 1: 11 month pup injures tail - no need to amputate, it's hanging by a thread of skin. Lots of blood (tail injuries bleed profusely), pain & antibiotics later, what's left of tail starts to heal. Weeks later, he knocks his healing stump - more bleeding, more antibiotics - repeat twice more. Eventually it does completely heal - but it's far from all being well. This little guy now gets very anxious & aggressive if anyone touches him anywhere near his rear end & don't even think about touching the stump. It's not just their physical well-being a severe tail injury affects - the fright and longer term pain of the injury does just as much, if not more damage

If you can equate a child hurting an animal with a dog killing stock then I'd be relieved to know you don't possess a firearm.

Thanks for the kind thoughts for the dogs. I would be one of those people that take a different view - I have other animals here that I treasure as much as any dog - horses, couple of old cows, my favourite goats..................I can't "just get another one" & I am not prepared to just "lose" them or "give them up" because some numpty thinks it's fine to let his dogs belt around the countryside chasing whatever they feel like. I do my utmost to keep our stock safe, we have good fencing (mesh & electric) & good dogs - if that's not enough to deter them, then I have no qualms about picking up a gun.

Absolutely - aside from the injuries & death from actual attacks/bites (& some of the injuries make your stomach turn), I think someone already mentioned too, they panic stock to run through fences & other obstacles and they don't even have to touch them for the stress of being chased & frightened to make pregnant does abort, stillbirth or abandon babies. I would agree - we have minimal dingo problems - they wised up to the LGDs pretty quickly & look for easier meals. Pet dogs are the main problem in our area - I think our livestock dogs have saved us a lot of heartbreak.

If the dogs in question had just been lost, wandering or hanging about harmlessly, then sure, try to call or catch them - these dogs weren't, they were killing Bigdogs poultry. If I found 2 dogs (whether they were dingos, feral dogs or pet dogs) in the act of attacking & killing my animals - you can be sure there would not be a warning shot. In the last week I have had 2 of my Maremmas injured by dogs (not seriously & recovering well) but my neighbour has not been so lucky - 6 goats mauled in one night, 2 whose injuries were so horrific they had to be destroyed, the other 4 will hopefully recover. No stock owner enjoys shooting dogs on their property - nor do they enjoy having their animals terrorised, mauled or killed.

Heard that one about Maremmas a lot, along with: - you can't feed them meat or they'll attack their flock - or the other version, you can't feed them the species they guard ie no mutton for dogs that guard sheep, no chevon for dogs that guard goats cos they'll figure where their meat is coming from & help themselves - you need to remove them at kidding time or they'll eat the babies - it's so cruel having them in a paddock with all those goats (one lady was utterly horrified - you mean they stay out there all night! That should be illegal!) - they are all completely untrainable & savage - a vet nurse assured me "It's a Maremma - they all bite" - working Maremmas must never be socialised or handled as it will ruin them for guarding

Is that because of her personality/temp or simply as a new owner of the breed there is too much to learn and understand about a LGD? It's a combination of things - yes, she has a dominant type character, very independent, she is difficult to contain, she is always looking to extend her territory, guards her territory ferociously and is DA & HA within that territory. She's serious, large & fast and gives little to no warning. Managing her so she is not a danger to others has been challenging. She was my first working LGD (she's almost 8 now & retired to house dog) and even after owning, showing & breeding dogs for 20 odd years, she was still a huge learning curve for me - I was lucky to have good support & advice from other more experienced LGD owners. She's taught me a lot & I wouldn't swap her for the world :D but it's been a long hard road.

Sorry to hear about your sheep We've used both a Kangal/Anatolian & Maremmas with our goats - they work very differently but both are extremely effective. I also found it really helpful to talk with other goat/sheep breeders who use LGDs & see what is working for them - there are so many variables - your location, predator load & type, property size & layout, fencing, variety of stock etc. Much as I adore my Kangal & she is brilliant at what she does, I would not recommend her as suitable for a first time LGD owner.

My favourites of Luka

+1 - I define a puppy farmer as someone who breeds with no thought/plan for the dogs their puppies wil become - the puppy itself is the end product

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/04/06/2865545.htm