Diva

This thread may be the place to ask a question about the 'perfect recall' Borzoi I mentioned earlier. I know people will doubt the story, but she truly never failed to come immediately when called. And it's relevant to the main point of the thread I think. I have always had a theory that her recall, and probably her immense trust of people, was conditioned in the nest. Building on her temperament of course, but trained very early. It wouldn't have been intentional on her breeders part, she was no believer in formal obedience training for the breed when I knew her then. But she was/is one of the best people I have ever met in handling both young dogs and the breed generally. If she was still breeding I'd have never gotten a Borzoi anywhere else. But what do the trainers think - can you imprint the basic recall really deeply in a baby puppy, say before 10 weeks? Is that theoretically possible?

Well my current 'always turns on a dime when I call her at the usual park' dog did fail to recall when she realised 2 young humans were 'mating' on the cricket pitch, but I put that in the dinosaur category. She did tear herself away on the second or third call which is good, as I didn't want to have to walk over to get her I'd have better recalls on my current bunch if I practised it much more diligently and if I had conditioned them to roos and stock as baby puppies. So they could be better with more effort. 100% in all situations, I don't know. I don't use food much as reward by the way, my dogs often have little interest in it when they have been running. The best reinforcement for recalling 'the driven one' seems to be doing it from a distance so she gets to run fast back to me. Self reinforcing and backed up by praise, chasing me, a game, thrown toy, another release to play.... One might respond to e-collar training, if that is where you are headed. The other 2 would be quite likely to shut down or freak out I think. And all of their breeders and my breed mentors would likely take out a contract on me if I used an e-collar on any of them.

No, not particulary you Erny. As I said, I believe it's possible. (Anyway you have a ridgeback don't you, that's sighthound-ish ). If whale can jump through hoops on cue, sighthounds can recall. But those who have never handled sighthounds around prey distractions, and especially the hard core sighthounds, can speak with a confidence that starts to look pretty silly when the Saluki sees the hare. Negative consequences mean little to dogs that will not stop the chase even after ripping their legs open, and that have been known to try to finish the chase with a broken leg. I expect that one can teach a very reliable recall to such a dog - but I am even surer you can think you have only to have it fall to pieces one unexpected day with the death of a prey animal or the death of the dog the result. They were not bred to listen to people in those circumstances - no human direction was needed or offered. The reason I am so keen to be realistic about this is simple. In the USA, the major cause of death of young Borzoi - purebred, highly valued, well kept dogs - is being hit by a car. Because most people can't teach them a 50% recall in the face of moving distractions, let alone a 100% one. The likely opinions of other forums have been raised in this thread - I can promise you if I raised this question in a Saluki or Borzoi forum, I'd be told to never to let the dogs off lead in an unfenced area, or expect a dead dog one day. No matter what training mehtod I employed, or how good a trainer I was.

How? Often, a certain lack of humility when it comes to recall training Oh I believe it's possible too. As my post says. And certainly as I've had one dog who had it and many who were close. But, as was the point of my post, to do it reliably with sighthound breeds - especially the 'hard core' sighthounds - is very difficult. Very, very, very difficult. That makes sense. Although the Borzoi I had with the "perfect" recall was an extremely self-confident bitch with what I consider as close to a perfect temperament as I am ever likely to find. And I can claim no credit for training that recall, btw. She arrived with it at 10 weeks old and never failed to recall instantly until the day she died. Jules P - I agree with your posts, you don't ever really know until the opportunity for it to fail has passed.

Interesting thread, although it's easy to pick the people who have hands-on sighthound experience from those who don't. I'm think I'm like Rommi n Lewis - I have a pretty good recall with my dogs, including in an unfenced park with other dogs running around, games of soccer, picnics etc. In fact I think it was probably my 'girls' ssm was so generously referring to below: I've even had one Borzoi, long gone now, who I could, hand on my heart, swear had a 100% recall even off foxes which were her passion. And no negative consequences for not coming were ever used on her, nor did she ever expect a food reward. But that's one out of seven. If she was the only dog I'd ever had I'd be posting - as so many do with such bemusing certainty - from a very narrow experience. The rest of my 'zoi are on lead around 'roos or stock, or a busy road. Because no matter how reliable they are elsewhere, I can be certain they are not 100% around that hard-wired response to large, fast moving prey animals until they are positively elderly. They know dogs and kids are not prey - but you need to be conditioning them with great dedication from babies if you want them to accept that hares and roos aren't. On the other hand, every Belgian Shepherd I have owned has had at least a 99% reliable recall everywhere. Same person handling them, but the breed difference is everything. That's just Borzoi, even though 'zoi are among the more biddable sighthounds. Like Whippets I think from what I have seen of them. Salukis and the other ancient oriental sighthounds on the other hand are a whole other level again. You might well get a 100% reliability with one exceptional dog, but to do it reliably with those breeds in the presence of prey you'd need to be an extraordinary trainer with a great amount of time to spend on it - as ssm said, it would be the London marathon of dog training.

No I haven't, because no-one has responded to my email of yesterday asking for the bank details. But if anyone would like to pm me that info and a reference number I'll buy some.

It could be argued that price is never completely 'fair' as a public policy tool. But it is very often both effective and efficient in changing behaviour - depending on the elasticity of demand in the particular instance. Any other alternative that worked would be fine with me too. And I do support education as well as my first post clearly indicated. However education alone is often insufficient or is very slooooow in making an impact. Now I really must not debate, it's becoming an addiction :p . No more of this thread for me

I think the higher registration fees makes people actually think about the choice. Many people I know who have entire pets don't really understand a dog's reproductive cycle even. Something that makes them think about why they chose to leave their dogs entire, and makes that a conscious choice, I support. Not just leaving them entire because it's cheaper and requires no action. Not going to debate on it though, just posting my considered opinion as the poll invites.

I'm an 'other' voter. I think people who do not breed or show should be encouraged, including potentially through the price of registration, to desex their dogs at a breed appropriate age. And also informed about both the health pros and cons and about what properly managing an entire dog, especially an entire bitch, entails so that their choice to do so or not is well informed. But I don't think it should be compulsory.

I'd be wondering if she was in pain

Any breed of dog can be dangerous or aggressive. Most Labs aren't agressive, it's not typical of their temperment. But individual Labs can be and are. Not every individual in any breed has the breed typical temperament. What does seem to be typical of their temperament, at least as adolescents, in my direct experience is very little sense of personal space or normal dog manners. Not all (see above, LOL) but most who haven't been taught otherwise. I love Labs. And I avoid young Labs like the plague at dog parks until I can assess from a distance how rude or polite they are with other dogs. That said, some of my dogs' best friends are Labs.

I would think that is how it is, and also how it should be. They may take the views of the offended party into account. But they are not acting for the one person who made the complaint, they would be acting because of a breach of the law and taking whatever action is prescribed by the law. I doubt a ranger can make anyone pay medical costs either, that would be for a court.

Probably the council? Just tell them what you know, they may say they can't do anything with it but it's good to have it on the record in case there is a diligent ranger willing to keep an eye out.

Given that it is apparently a pattern of behaviour and that the owner is in denial, I would report it. With limited details they may not be able to do much, but if she goes at the same time each day let them know that too.

Very smart. When my neighbours have their outdoor karaoke parties I'd like a crate to hide in too

So sorry that happened Esky, that would have been so hard for you.

Sorry, I thought you fostered for a group. My mistake. From your description I don't think it sounds like a terrible incident, even though it would have been distressing for you. But it's impossible really for me to say that with any credibility without seeing the dynamics and what difference, if any, it has made to Flynn's manners.

Hard problem westielover, I'd probably keep them part when home alone until I thought Flynn was 'listening' to Spencer well. Especially as he is under your care as a foster but not really your dog, if you know what I mean. That would make me even less inclined to take risks. But on the other hand he probably learns a lot running with the others so it's a shame. Mine run together when I'm not home, always have, except for the very young or very old who will be separated if I think they are likely to get accidently hurt. Accidental damage (of the kind needing a chiropractor) is the only issue I have had - as ssm mentioned it's a known risk with young, too playful, sighthounds.

The Pointer puppy is cute, but the Belgian is gorgeous!

Why is that being defiant? I think maybe belgian.blue meant definitely, rather than defiantly?

We lost 'Ted the Bear' the same sad way. Decapitated. Damn sighthounds!

That's lucky!

Belco and CDC are both good clubs, if Belconnen is closer to you I'd go with that. A couple of DOLers instruct there too. I don't know Tuggers but it sounds like it is a long way from you anyway. For a good conditioned recall I would recommend Leslie Nelson's Really Reliable Recall dvd or book. If I could find my copy of the dvd I'd gladly lend it to you but it has disappeared and fails to recall itself.

Oh my, those 2 eight week old photos of Humphrey are gorgeous!

Any colour or combination of colours is technically acceptable in in my breed. But the nose must be black - which actually means some colours are unacceptable as they genetically can't come with a black nose. There are fashions and fads in the show ring and a particular colour is much more favoured at the moment. I think this is a shame as it becomes self-perpetuating. I'd hate to lose the huge range of colours and patterns that are possible as has happened in some breeds in the past. I have a favourite colour (and pattern) but it's a long time since I've owned one of that colour, as I tend to put conformation and temperament way in front of colour and it's not that common. One of my favourite sayings is ' a good hound can't be a bad colour' . But I don't think there is anything wrong with someone preferring to own a particular colour so long as they have that preference in context. No point seeking out a poorly built or difficult natured dog because you like its colour.