Diva

Not in my neighbourhood - the dogs that hassle mine are a nice mix of male, female, desexed and not. Well I can't really tell about the girls, but some of the males haven't had any balls. The only common demoninator has been an incompetent, or more often completley absent as most have been loose on the street, owner. It would be a relief to only have the entire males come at us really, there would be fewer of them. Is it only Terriers that come at your guys? We have a least 3 seperate pairs of loose JRTs around here that rush the bigger dogs, but also a selection of the larger non-terrier breeds that do the same.

I thought this dog was strong and untrained and pulling on the lead, not roaming or humping or aggressive or a problem marker, unless I missed something along the way. Females yes, but no-one I knew desexed males unless they were having major problems with them, which was uncommon. And I think I am probably as old as you. I'm not giving you a hard time, just not agreeing with you, there is a difference. Quite simply - No. That will only happen on a case by case basis if I have a medical reason to, not because someone else thinks they should be. I will not increase the risk of osteosarcoma or hypothyroid or hemangiosarcoma that lightly, or put them through a GA for no good reason.

Yeh come on Steve, take it off!!! ;) I must be getting old - I'd prefer the crate

They don't have to be shrinking violets or desexed to not bother anyone, just effectively socialised, trained and managed. Greytmate, in at least 2 of those studies it looks like behavioural problems were identified before desexing, it is interesting to see how those behaviours were affected or not by desexing, but it doesn't really convince me that desexing is the default option of choice when no behavioural problems are present in an entire dog. As many have said in this thread, desexing may make a difficult dog more manageable in some respects. And not in others. The females who became aggressive only after desexing are interesting too - I had heard of that anecdotally but not seen it reported like that before.

That sounds like he could do fine, in that situation I'd give it a go too.

I'm getting 12.4 L/100 in the petrol AWD territory, mix of surburban and country driving.

I think dogs manage very well on three legs. But if it has been an amputation because of bone cancer rather than an accident then the prognosis can be poor. I had a 7 yr old Borzoi bitch pts rather than amputate, after talking to breed experts. The fact is that in my breed the disease has most likely spread before it is even diagnosed, and the post op survival rate at that time was not good, at best several months. It was enormously distressing to have to make that decision, she was my beloved heart dog, but I couldn't put her through such a major procedure for just a few months of life. I could have gone either way though, there is no right or wrong choice in that situation, and I can honestly say that I was haunted for years by the thought that I didn't give her the chance. I hope that if the dog has bone cancer that treatments have improved since we went through it, and the dog does well. I have heard of one dog who lived for a couple of years before it recurred. And maybe other breeds cope better with bone cancer than the big sighthounds, I wouldn't know about that. If it is not cancer, then the amputation itself wouldn't bother me too much, it is a big op but they do learn to manage. Sparkycat, Mungo was beautiful!

That would concern me, and probably send me back to the vet. Hope the porridge helps.

For this dog and this person I do think desexing is the right choice, as I do for most dogs and most owners. I just get peeved when people try to exaggerate the benefits - they should stand on their own merits. This gentleman should be told that desexing may help his dog be more manageable and will prevent it siring an accidental litter. That should be enough to persuade him, but if it isn't it's his legitimate choice, as long as the dog is contained and not out impregnating the neighbourhood. I keep my dogs entire for health reasons (my personal judgement is that for mine the increased risk of certain serious diseases outweighs the diminished risk of a few others), to avoid the risk of spay incontinence (yes they are girls) and the hard to manage spay coat my breed seems to get when desexed, and because I can choose to do so knowing I will not have an accidental litter or hard to manage dogs. But why I choose to keep mine entire has nothing to do with this thread - or at least it didn't until people started posting that it was selfish to make that decision, or that entire male dogs were as hard to manage compared to desexed ones as stallions are to geldings. Neither statement correlates at all with my experience. Testosterone does sometimes fuel behavioural problems, but someone forgot to tell my four previous entire boys that. Maybe that makes me a great handler of dogs, but I doubt it. I just think it means that entire male dogs aren't anywhere near the universal behavioural challenge that it is sometimes stated they are.

One of mine was disturbingly skinny as an adolescent, not unusual for the breed at that age but she occasionally strayed into what I considered to be an emaciated look so I tried to build her up. She could drop a couple of kilos in a weekend if she was 'busy', LOL and she didn't have a large appetite so what she could lose easily took ages to get back on. I'd say she was 10% under an acceptable weight much of the time. Very high energy dog. Oat porridge helped, and so did a performance formula kibble added to her mostly raw diet. I fed more fequently and hand fed the kibble as a training treat - I didn't want her to get fussy so didn't fuss around changing foods or pay any attention when she was eating, I acted like I didn't care if she ate or not. I made her work for the training treats so she didn't get used to being hand fed as a way of life, LOL. She did get a lot of training jackpots! I stayed away from satin balls, just didn't think the recipe looked healthy, but others swear by them But I was pretty sure she was healthy (vet checked and her general constitution) and that it wasn't an unusual problem after consulting with breed gurus, she was just one of those skinny energiser bunny puppies. Now that she has hit 3 she is starting to hold weight on her own. How much you worry depends on whether it's a growth stage or whether you think there might be an underlying health problem, I'd treat the two issues very differently. Mine looked fabulous apart from the weight, could out run anyone, good stamina and was as happy as a dog could be. If she hadn't looked so healthy, I would have tracked down a more intensive vet check.

LOL, no I didn't think you were.

True Mita. The bit that really interests me is the physical changes to the brain structure, how the brain itself is shaped to gain the evolutionary advantage, and have we done the same to dogs' brains in the way we have selected for breed behavioural traits and physical skills - maybe more applicable for the really old distinct breeds than those developed in the last century or so, but interesting. It was kind of the point of the Catalyst segment - how different the domestic dogs' brains were to the Dingo's. I wonder if that is true between some breeds also, beyond the obvious things people quote like size etc, but down to brain structure. I might be getting a bit OT though, better butt out!

I think that is the point most people are making Koala - most of us aren't aware of a standard accepted measure of canine intelligence, maybe it exists in the research world but if so I haven't stumbled across it. In many of the examples people have mentioned, the level of motivation for the dog to learn a behaviour and it's inherited behavioural preferences seem to me to a key - I think a good canine Houdini is probably intelligent given the problem solving it exhibits, but not necessarily more intelligent than the dog who stays in the yard, because the stay-at-home may just not be motivated to try and get out. Or maybe the Houdini just has higher levels of persistence and optimism to keep trying. I watched a TV segment the other day - maybe it was Catalyst? - which compared domestic dogs' problem solving to access food to a Dingo's. The Dingo won the day easily, but the dogs' ability to read human body language was streaks ahead - that is the stuff that I find interesting, the lists are just the pop culture face of it to me. If the dog's brain has evolved to give it more ability to read people, losing some problem solving along the way, has a Kelpie's brain been selected for the ability to take direction well from a distance (as my Belgians were very good at too), whereas maybe another breed hasn't changed in that way because it didn't need to? I know a Borzoi's field of vision is a bit different to many breeds to suit its task in life, I wonder how deep the changes go.

Borzoi are very low on the list, and I've found that they can look quite thick until THEY really want something, then they can problem solve quite smartly. As in the one that learnt to turn my old air con on, and my current one that taught herself how to open the fridge so she could help herself to the egg carton. I can teach them most simple exercises in a handful of reps, but working for people is not their default mode, to get good reliable work on cue for exercises that don't seem to have an inherently meaningful context to them I either need to make compliance exciting, as in drive training, or rely on their general amiability and relationship with me - pack drive I guess. But that is hardly suprising to me in a breed that had to make its most challenging decisions well away from human direction, in the heat of the chase. Edited to add: just saw your post ssm. You are dead right, there is great intra-breed variability. And the quickest problem solver of my current cohort, probably the most intelligent by most measures, is also the most challenging to live with as a pet (eg the fridge example).

No I wouldn't mention that although it proved the seats clean up well

Yep, so I can report that it fits 2 Borzoi, a very special Whippet, a princess Toy Poodle, 2 Showies, a large x pen, a show trolley, a gazebo, gazebo sides, a large mat, water container, bowls, chairs, grooming boxes, 2 Macca drive through coffees ........

I've had a Territory for a year now. No complaints at all, very happy with it.

There are people who have had problems with entire dogs, and people like me who have had multiple entire large and very large breed males, including several at the same time, without a problem. No aggression, no roaming, no indoor marking, no testicular or prostate problems. If there is a chance the guy's yard is insecure, it looks like the dog might be bred from or is a fence jumper or seems to attract aggressive responses, or is a general PITA even, then desexing is worth a go. But it isn't by anymeans assured of improving behaviour and I'd be reluctant to push an operation on an owner who doesn't want it unless there is a real benefit to him. Good on you for helping the guy though. Leelaa, desexing your dog at 6 months was probably fine. Most breeders of large breeds, and dog sport people too often, would prefer not to desex until the growth plates have closed. There is a relationship between hormones and growth, and an earlier desexed dog can grow taller, have less muscle and be more prone to some health problems. But he is probably not going to have any issue and you shouldn't worry. Really early desexing is done as young as 8 weeks.

OT Type in osteosarcoma microchip into google search. Yes, I know

books

The individual consideration of risks and benefits is the key for me. My fav breed is robust with very few health issues and Steve's post nails 2 of the biggest as at increased risk if desexed. The increased osteosarcoma risk is critical. Osteosarcoma is probably the major disease cause of death for my breed, and I'll do anything I reasonably can to minimise that particular risk. Hypothyroidism is a big issue for the breed too - have never had it, but am not keen to triple the risk. It's the one that crops up in the breed health surveys and OFA stats as most of concern so I am not about to play into that predisposition. ps: poodlefan for PM or at least Chief Minister

didn't mean to misquote, will go back and edit to 'unfair'. But yes, it's so counter to my direct personal experience with entire and desexed dogs that I can't give it any credence.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then because I can't think of any circumstances where it would be appropriate not to desex, apart from the one I outlined in my earlier post. Or maybe where a rescued animal is already very old. I think it is unfair to leave a dog entire, with all its natural urges unfulfilled. Desexing helps to eliminate that problem. Perthaps you can outline some reasons why desexing of pets should be optional. It should be optional because the purported medical effects are by no means all positive. The main benefit is in regard to unwanted litters - well I am quite capable of avoiding those and I can make medical decisions for my animals better than any one-size-fits-all blanket policy. I should be able to chose for them not to have major internal (for bitches) organs removed for societal convenience, and for them not to have to suffer the hormonal impacts of that. I've not desexed any of my male dogs over the years, and of the 2 females I've desexed I consider the one desexed just for my convenience to be a major mistake and unfair on the dog. Excepting a medical reason or suddenly not being able to keep them secure (which is improbable in my circumstances) I am unlikely to ever desex another dog of mine. And that is an informed choice, not laziness. I happily stump up for the entire permits, and wish the ACT govt would use the funds to police the existing laws about roaming dogs with a bit more vigour - if they did maybe I could take the pound off my speed dial. Saying it's unfair to keep dogs entire because they will get frustrated just sounds absurd to me, like a made up reason designed to appeal to the anthropomorphic amongst us. I have kept too many happy, fulfilled undesexed dogs over the years to swallow it. I strongly support subsidisied desexing - but tying that issue to the manadatory desexing argument does it no favours with people like me. No signature here.

Borzoi This is my current oldie, I also have two younger girls:

As a child I saw a picture of my fav breed in a book, and walked around showing my family the breed I was going to own one day. It wasn't a great photo, it was a rare breed, and people laughed at me, but apparently I was quite certain - a little kid saying she didn't like the dogs in that photo, but she knew that was the breed she was going to have. Just a fact, not a preference, LOL. Found one advertised in the local paper while at Uni, and have had between one and three ever since, for 30 years. Not exactly the most logical way of choosing a breed, lol, but it just felt inevitable. And they suit me down to the ground. Had a second breed as well for a while, which I chose much more logically for dog sport and SAR. Will have another of those perhaps, when I have more time, as they are fabulous - but for now am back to just my heart breed.