stormie

From what i've read, cooking and freezing doesn't guarantee the hydatids are killed/removed. If feeding non human grade meats and offal, I'd be ensuring the dog is wormed regularly and religiously with a wormer that controls hydatid tapeworms. It's just not worth the risk of death to not do it!

I can sympathise... I have an itchy 6month old puppy too... Dermatologists will insist you do a food trial before they skin test, and even then they prefer to wait till the dog is atleast 11months old before they will do it (thats what the two here said anyway). A food trial needs to go for atleast 12 weeks, 6 weeks isn't enough to guarantee it isn't a food issue. My boy seems worse after running and rolling around in kikeyu grass - when its wet it is worse... As for antihistamines, one dermatologist has had success, the other hadn't. But it's definately worth a try. I find adding antihistamines with Orbits cortisone means we can really keep the amount of cortisone we give down. Adding fatty acids like Evening Primrose Oil can help with the antihistamines to work a little better. As for skin scraping, demodex generally doesnt cause intense itching. Scabies mites do, however as they burrow deep they rarely show up on scrapings. We treated Orbit with Revolution every 2 weeks for 6 weeks under instructions from the dermatologist to rule out scabies. Goodluck with the new vet - hopefully you'll get some answers and some relief!!

Thats very interesting to me. The Vet I saw had no preference for z/d vs. FP (thats is another hydrolosate food, right?). I just kept on typing z/d because it is what we carried in my old clinic, so I remember the name better. The presenter was positive that the gene stays active for 9-12 months. I suppose that going onto any of the hydrolosate foods would not allow the body to form any new allergies.... since everything is so small the body can't even recognize it... Nah the Euk FP is Fish and Potato.... As far as I know and what the dermatologists say, they can develop an allergy to something at any age. They were even telling us they have seen dogs actually develop a sensitivity to particular things used in the intradermal skin tests, which are often done years after the development of allergies, so they can develop at any time and continue throughout the dogs (or cats) life

Thanks Bubbly... Interestingly, I was at an allergy seminar just a couple of weeks ago and the dermatologists didn't recommend the Hills z/d anymore for the food trials, but prefer the Euk FP instead. Also, the age group for food allergies has changed and they now say that a pruritic dog < 6months old is likely to be food allergies over atopy! The dermatologist we are dealing with actually told me once I had ruled out parasites etc, to go straight on with a food trial and this was at 16wks old.

It has a really high Protein % though maybe it is him just getting used to it? it's only 27% protein, which is only 1% more than his previous food.

Well, been on the Artemis for 4 days straight now, and not sure how long we'll go on with it. Orb often gets gas from his food, which we are ultimately trying to avoid, but the gas produced from the artemis is the worst he's ever had. Stools are also quite soft. Perhaps we'll try the EP Holistic Giant puppy next...

Everything you have described are symptoms of back pain - how old is he?

good decision, he's well respected as knowing his stuff

Have a look at www.greatdanelady.com I'd go for a large breed puppy food like Eagle Pack Large/Giant Puppy. They have a premium and a holistic range. The dry foods are generally pretty well balanced, so I wouldn't go adding anything to it such as straight meat or extra carbs as you may upset the calcium/phosphorus ratio which is so important in puppies.

could she have an intolerance that something in her diet? inflammatory bowel disease perhaps? hope you get to the bottom of it!

demodex generally isn't itchy...

Is the pain in the joint or in the muscle? are any of the joint swollen? Has anyone extracted joint fluid for testing? It's possible that whatever is the problem just isnt showing up on the xray due to angles etc... Have you considered a specialist?

For orbit, he has itched on everything so far, though we didn't stay on the FP for as long as we should have and I wasn't totally strict about it cause I really wanted him to have bones etc... But, everything he has eaten so far has had beet pulp in it, in fact it's been the only common ingredient in every food. Every food has given him foul gas so i'm hoping that might be the culprit (my breeder said it can contain corn so to be wary of it?). I wish the EP had flavour that didn't have the beet pulp in it! But that's the reason i'm going with the Artemis I guess.... Fingers crossed for all!!!

Hi pants - sorry to hear about your boy. Itching really is an awful problem. My dane boy orbit has been itchy since he was 10wks old (he's 6 months now) and we're still trying to get to the bottom of it. We have been dealing with a dermatologist who suggested we first rule out a few things before we look at doing skin testing. For starters, contact allergies are actually quite rare, she was saying. Plants like wandering jew do not cause allergic reactions as such, but can be irritating. Muzzle and belly are areas that can itch with any type of allergy, be it atopy (pollens, dust mites etc - basically doggy 'hayfever') or food allergy. To rule out a specific plant or grass causing a reaction, she suggested we keep him inside for 10-14 days with no contact with plants. To rule out something inside being an issue, like carpet cleaners, floor cleaners, perfumes etc, she suggested keeping him outside for the same amount of time (haha i couldn't bring myself to do this one just yet!) Another step as a pup was to treat for parasites such as fleas and scabies - we did this with revolution. After that she suggested we place him on a food trial to rule out food allergies. You need to do this for atleast 12 weeks using a protein source and carbohydrate your dog has previously not had before. We used Eukanuba FP but didn't follow it for the full 12wks as he wasn't putting on weight with it (we will try this again once he's out of his critical growth period). Our next step after we've gone through all of these will be intradermal skin testing. This generally isn't done till the dogs are atleast 11months old, so we still have some time to keep investigating. In the mean time, we have him on oral pred at the lowest dose he can manage, which is NOT an immune suppressive dose, rather just an anti inflammatory dose. He also gets antihistamines (iramine) and Evening Primrose Oil in his food and is bathed every 4 days with evening primrose shampoo. Goodluck!

Yep we sure do - you have no idea all the things I have tried. Yet I do not think diet has ever been an issue, as Benson's skin problems started quite suddenly in Mid Nov. But the reason I personally wanted to put Benson on EP Duck was because at that stage it was the best you could get in Australia and thought having a single protein source might assist with his body coping with the allergies and was crossing fingers that the oatmeal also might be beneficial. However I am seeing changes in Benson since we saw Dr Stevenson - he has heaps more energy and he said that would happen with the treatment so just a matter of time to see how he does - I am quietly optomistic that this will fix him completely as he was so very confident that this will repair his immune system and that will then allow his body to fix itself. All the best!! We recently went to a dermatology siminar thing at the uni, and both dermatologists there said they had seen improvements in atopic (seasonal allergies) dogs when they were put on hypoallergenic diets!!

Not had this personally, but I knew of someone who's dog had a similar thing but it turned out it had tendonitis? Goodluck and I hope you get some answers soon!!

Well the information I read on EP Duck was about 60 days to see change yet I do know if I will actually get to see assistance from the food specifically as Benson and i have been to see a homeopathic vet and he is giving him a mixture to try to fix his immune system. So regardless at this point in time I kind of am at the point with his allergies that I don't care what is the fix but i just want my baby all better! With these puppy/adult issues I always wonder: wolves eat the same stuff regardless if they are young or old. I doubt they say: "you lilttle ones you need more calcium have this bit". I sort of eases my mind a little and just makes me realize one more time how little we know about all this diet thing. I wonder the same thing! But then I wonder if wolf pups suckle milk for longer? Then I stop and think, well, there are no great danes out in the wild, we created them, and they do grow much faster than wolves for example, so its possible that they have different nutritional requirements?

Ah FTPO you have allergy problems too? Orb has been itchy since the day he came home to me at 10wks. It's really frustrating isnt it... Have you tried the Eukanuba FP? the ingredients aren't bad and its recommended by the specialists over the Hills Z/D as an elimination diet. Generally the food trial has to go for about 12 weeks to know if it works...

Interesting. Just speaking to my vets about this now, he was saying that he was well aware of wheat being an issue but heard much regarding corn just yet. Our theory though is that wheat used to be the main grain used in foods, particularly supermarket brands, so because dogs were being exposed to it, they were suseptable to developing allergies. Perhaps now with the use of corn in most foods, that is why there is a higher incidence of problems with corn. I wonder if something such as oatmeal or barley was to eventually be used more due to issues with corn and wheat, would we start seeing dogs with issues with these also? I guess the other thing is, generally, for most dogs, corn and wheat probably aren't an issue. I think its when there are problems that its important for vets to recognise that it could be the diet and look for an appropriate elimination diet

jaeger - i think its just generally a matter of when the dog has reached maturity. eg I will keep Orbit on a growth food till he's about 18-24months as that roughly when he will stop growing. Smaller breeds like retrievers etc would probably finish their growing younger than this...

I definately know what you mean! When we got our golden, she was our first dog and we were very new the the doggy thing. She was raised on pedigree puppy and has really only had supermarket brands her whole life, with table scraps here and there. Now that I have easy access to it, I have her on a better quality senior food, but she has been a really healthy dog her whole life and has just reached 14yo!! A good friend of mine has a dane puppy born the day after Orbit. They have been raising this pup on the prey model diet since she was 8wks old which I am sure would far exceed the 25% protein thing... She's just gone 6months and everything is growing normal and soundly. Food companies etc seem to be constantly coming up with new information which says we need to be feeding this and that for our pets. Companies are even bringing out 'neutured cat' foods saying they are designed for desexed male cats! Makes me wonder what their adult maintenance cat diet is good for then! I think it's great we are getting more and more options for feeding here in australia, but with all the information out there, and some of it conflicting, it can be really hard to know exactly what to feed! I am constantly going back to our vet text books to read things about diet and nutrition, as they are based on real studies. However then I am constantly reading that apparently vets have no idea on animal nutrition, so that would mean their text books/uni notes are all wrong! So if the information the vets have is wrong, that would mean what the uni is teaching is wrong, and what the pet food companies tell us is wrong! So who exactly is right??

FTPO I don't think it will be a problem. When we got our retriever puppy 14 years ago, I don't remember there being special Large Breed Formula's - it was just puppy and adult! They say today that the puppy foods aren't suitable for large/giant breeds, and maybe they are different, but our girl did fine and is still healthy and normal today! My understanding has been that adult foods are probably better for the large/giant puppies than the normal puppy food if you had to chose, because they generally have less protein, calories, fat, calcium etc and are possibly more suited the larger breeds than the smaller breeds... feel free to hijack the thread anytime! Yep, i'm learning too so the more information the better!

I don't know heaps about it, but it's something i'm taking more interested in at the moment... I just know that there is a calcium/phosphorus ratio that is applicable in most species and it should be around 1.2:1. i'm not sure at what point its too much or too little though... too much calcium or not enough is not good for growing giants, so i tend to avoid anything that isnt around the 1.2:1 interesting, I was emailing the greatdanelady who really advocates EP Giant Puppy for danes (she's a nutrition lecturer in the US) and she told me the duck formula wasnt suitable for puppies and to get off it! Didnt' specify why though...

Agreed GL - that's why we went from Large Breed Puppy EP to Holistic Duck EP! Ingredients Duck Meal, Oatmeal, Ground Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Dried Beet Pulp, Sun-Cured Alfalfa, Air Dried Peas, Flaxseed, Brewers Dried Yeast, Tomato Pomace, Dried Egg Product, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Menhaden Oil, Dried Carrots, Quinoa (Organic), Sweet Potato, Inulin, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, DL-Methionine, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Pantothenic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Rosemary Extract, Inositol, Dehydrated Kelp, Polysaccharide Complexes (sequestered) of Zinc, Iron, Manganese, Copper and Cobalt, Potassium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Enterococcus faecium, B. Subtillus, Bacillus Lichenformis, Bacillus Coagulins, Aspergillus Oryzae and Aspergillus Niger. Analysis Crude Protein - Min. 23.0%,Crude Fat - Min. 13.0%, Crude Fiber - Max. 3.9, Moisture - Max. 10.0%, Calcium - Min. 1.0%, Glucosamine - Min. 400 ppm 41 mg/cup*, Phosphorus - Min. 0.55%, Vitamin A - Min. 22,000 IU/kg, Vitamin E - Min. 125 IU/kg, Omega 6 - Min. 2.5%*, Omega 3 - Min. 0.5%*, 386 ME (Kcal/cup) PS - EP have change this recipe since the review was done by that website that I quoted before - it no longer has white rice! The only problem I have with this food for a growing puppy is the Calcium:Phosphorus ratio. It should be about 1.2:1, but this EP is about 2:1

I looked in our veterinary nutrition books regarding this before I got Orbit, and they all say that it isn't actually the protein that affects the growth rate so much, but the calorie intake, and therefore its the fat/calories per cup that you need to watch rather than the protein. In saying that though, I still stick to foods that are about 23-27% protein for Orbit...