stormie

Maybe its time to just agree to disagree?

Almost EVERY vet practising south of Mackay in Queensland was invited to the Jean Dodds seminar in Brisbane, the ones in Brisbane by phone and letter, the ones further away, by letter. The vet school was advised too. Something like 600+ invitations were issued. If you are in Qld, your clinic was advised, via a letter to the clinic, and vets practising in the clinic were individually invited. The responses to the telephone invitations were - um - illuminating. Ranged from never heard of it, to yes we know, but they wont bring their pets in every year, so we will lose money so we wont do it, to a couple that seemed to think I was suggesting they attend a course in Bestiality 101. I can understand, if vets weren't aware of the AVA discussion a few years previous about changing the vac. protocols, they might not have been interested. But the response was deafening in its lack of response. However, Jean Dodds said that was what would happen. I'm in Sydney, so no, our clinic wasn't advised. In saying that though, my vet recognised a few vets at the Sydney talk, so there were some there...

Dr Dodds was brought to Australia by the Golden Retriever folk and gave presentations at their Nationals. My friend and I drove from Canberra to Sydney to see her presentation. So did a few dog breeders. Her Sydney audience was mostly dog sports folk and breeders. Yes, it was a pity there weren't more vets there. Frankly I think a lot of vets need to do some rethinking about their "desex everything at 6 months and jab them once a year for life" standard approach to dog husbandry. Don't even get me started on how many vets allow their clients to carry far too much weight without saying a word to owners. :D My vet, although very knowledgeable, was anti-titre until recently. She now does them. She said she's concerned that a lot of her pet dog owners would balk at the potential cost of titreing and then having to vaccinate or that they'll not come in for annual check ups. I think her concerns are justified. Maybe if the vets got told about it, maybe more would have been interested? Our clinic never received any information about her coming. The only reason my vet and I went, was from hearing about it through DOL and me telling him about it.

With the Holistic range, EP have a small/mini puppy, large/giant puppy, and their chicken and rice formula is for small-med puppies.

I know quite a few dane people who feed Euk Large Puppy. I fed it to Orbit and had no issues - he did very well on it. Interesting information Kelpie-i, though what doesn't make sense then, is why all the large breed puppy premiums, all base their formulas on lower calories. And I wonder why so many danes that I know of that were raised on a raw diet (Orbit was also put on raw at 10months) are structurally sound. The main thing I could think of with a diet very high in protein, is that it may have been too high in phosphorus, and not enough calcium, hence the problems. But, I'm not going to argue with a Professor I know of someone who worked in an industry which involved her researching pigs raised for human consumption. I can't remember the full ins and outs of it, but it was found that the majority of the pigs slaughtered had OCD - due to the high calorie diets fed to increase growth rate as well as increasing weight.

There are a number of great dane breeders in USA who feed and raise their dogs on raw. Surely if protein was the issue, these pups would have terrible structural issues. A good friend of mine had a dane pup which they fed a premium large puppy diet. The pup actually started to knuckle over, and was actually corrected after switching to a raw diet, planned out by their natural vet.

Sagittarian I agree with you on that one. I read stacks of our vet books, both the nutrition ones and internal medicine ones, and all things relating to growth problem in large/giants and diet, was to do with calorie intake and inappropriate calcium/phosphorus levels, and not protein as often mention.

Most Large/Giant puppy foods would be suitable for a large breed puppy, but there are a couple I would personally stay away from. I would highly recommend Eagle Pack Large/Giant Puppy, as well as Eukanuba Large Puppy. It's not just the protein levels you need to look at, but also the fat levels (too many calories can lead to the pup growing too fast, resulting in some joint issues, like OCD) as well as calcium:phosphorus ratios. IMO, it's important for a large growing pup to have a high quality food, to avoid issues later on down the track.

Not as far as I'm aware of. Perhaps she recently had a reaction, which may have been her first, so now being more aware of reactions, is being sure to mention them to people?

It's possible they are a bit more sore today due to the poking/prodding/massaging done at the vets yesterday. Most of the common ear drugs prescribed cover a range of bacterial and fungal problems, so in many cases, the treatment will be the same whether its a yeast overgrowth or another type of bacteria. If the one prescribed doesn't work in the time frame prescribed, then obviously a recheck is in order and further investigation needed. Most cases of general ear infections will clear up with Dermotic, if it doesn't, then you're obviously dealing with something more difficult. Malaseb is for yeast, so if you are doubting the vets diagnosis for yeast, then there's no point using the malaseb. If you are unhappy with your consult, though, then I would give them a call and let them know. They may offer to see you again for free...

Do they include allergic dogs in that category (i.e. "immune issues") Stormie and do you have any links or other info on it? Ta! Sorry Zayda, I don't know about the allergic dog side of things - I just know through experience at work, that many of the cases of immune mediated polyarthritis and thrombocytopenia are occurring a week or two following vaccination. If you google Immune Mediated Polyarthritis and Vaccination, you'll get some info about that. As to whether or not the vaccine is specifically causing the issue, or its actually that the problem was lying dormant so to speak and the vaccine was enough to play with the immune system and let it go, is not known. Interestingly, the last case of IM Thrombocytopenia I saw, came on within 2 weeks of the dogs C3 vaccine. Apparently the dog had a reaction each time their vet vaccinated it (lethargic, vomiting) but they boarded regularly and didn't think it was that bad and never mentioned it!!

I'd avoid vaccines from now on. The joint problems worry me - if a dog is predisposed to immune issues, a vaccine could flare up a case of immune mediated polyarthritis. Our referral hospital is now recommending cases of IMP not be vaccinated due to the link.

I think you should get it investigated. Reverse sneezing is a normal action, but I don't feel its normal for them to have such a sudden increase in the frequency like you are describing. I don't want to scare you, but it might be something serious. If I were you I'd request a scope.

I don't know how true this is, but I confronted our EPH rep about the availability issue last week. We only just decided to stock EPH in our vet clinic recently and initially the rep made no mention of a problem with its availability. When it came time for us to order, though, the supplier said there's been issues. Anyways, when I spoke to the rep, she admitted there was an issue, but that they expected this to be sorted by mid November. Lets hope!!

He might just be a farter too Orbit farts on everything - he's on a completely raw diet now and still farts - though now its more of a meaty bone fart rather than stinky dry food fart!

My guess would be either the patella or the cruciate... how old is Pepe, WP?

I'd be getting joint fluid looked at too...

Hair loss on the lower back is very typical of flea allergy dermatitis. I'd be treating for fleas vigorously. With regards to the diet, I wouldn't just do chicken and rice - the idea behind a food elimination trial is to feed them something they've previously never eaten before, so chicken and rice would be the worst thing because that's in everything! I'd also be thoroughly checking your yard for irritant plants like wandering jew. Goodluck!!

Makes me feel sick Signed and added a link to my facebook...

Where we worked before, no, the clients didn't get a say. It was my boss's decision to keep them all in overnight. He used to send the boys home the same day, but changed this to keeping them all in overnight. His attitude was that he was the vet with the degree, so he knew what was best for them, from a medical point of view. In his experience, he felt that his clients tended to worry more when they went home the same day, even though there was nothing to worry about. And that's not to say they weren't sent home with adequate discharge instructions - some owners just worry.Like I said previously, most of our clients were not like DOL owners. Not that they didn't have a clue, but they didn't want to have to make the decision as to whether or not they came home - they trusted the vet and if that was how it was done, they were fine with it. It was pretty standard practice in our area for vets to keep desexings overnight. I think the area we were in too, saw that most of our clients probably preferred to be a bit more over the top about their animals treatments. I agree that no animal should be sent home groggy or if it is high risk. But you can't deny the difference in an animal the morning after a surgery. Our clients are welcome to call us and come and see us too, but if it's 9pm at night, they have very little option but to go phone/go to emergency and spend a fortune - to be told its just a bit of serum and nothing to worry about. Where we are working now, in our own practice, we are generally sending them home on the same day, assuming they are fine. One of our dogs we castrated yesterday - we told the owners he could go home the same day, but he was welcome to stay here (the vet lives here). The owners were so greatful and thankful that we would keep him in overnight, because they knew how lively and out of control he was and knew they wouldn't be able to keep him quiet on his first night. And when it comes to medical procedures, generally no, our clients don't really get a say. We are not one of those clinics that offers things like pain relief or fluids to clients and let them decide. To us, either an animal needs them or it doesn't, it we don't feel the owners should have to make those decisions, as generally, most of them aren't knowledgeable enough to do so. We don't charge extra for those things for desexings. If something needs more pain relief than another, it gets it. If something needs more fluids, or something doesn't, then it is done. Where do you draw the line at letting owners choose their animals treatments? Isn't that why they come to see the vet in the first place? For their expertise? I understand people's concerns about animals staying overnight where there are no staff to watch them. And I agree. However, there's less chance of something going wrong to an animal who is being crated and quietly sleeping all night, to one who has gone home to owners who don't always follow instructions to keep them quiet, and let them get excited. Anyways, I'll be sure to pass on to my boss that he's clearly a bad vet who has no idea...

I was always a really grubby kid, always outside playing with animals and bugs etc. My sister is the complete opposite of me and was always into being clean and looking pretty. Yet I'm the one with all the allergies to pollens, animal hair etc!

And it's going to make a difference sending the dog home the following morning There is often quite a difference in the animals the day after their surgery. The afternoon of the op, the wound can weep and the dogs can be groggy and whimpery from the anaesthetic. Most DOL owners are pretty dog savvy and wouldn't worry about these things, but I can tell you from experience, most of the dog owning population aren't like this, and would stress at the site of any blood, or because they think their dog is in pain. For example - we had a client a year or so back, who had a tiny skin wart taken off their dog. The lump was a tiny skin tag that could almost have been whipped off with just a bit of local. The dog had the relevant pain relief post op and was sent home that afternoon. That night, the owner was obsessed that the dog was in pain, because it was sleepy. They ended up taking it to the emergency hospital at about 2am and spent a few hundred dollars to get a shot of Methadone, to calm the owner down more than anything. Sure enough, the following morning, the dog was back to its normal self. Obviously we wouldn't keep small lump removals in overnight, but this is a perfect example of why we do er on the side of keeping them in. Too many owners worry at the site of blood and/or a sleep, groggy dog. By keeping them in, the dogs aren't being fussed over and getting excited to see their owners, and get a good night sleep and when the owners come to pick them up the next morning, the dogs are back to their normal selves and the wound is generally clean and not weeping. I'm not saying I disagree with them going home the same day. Now that we're in our new clinic, we're generally doing it on a case-by-case basis and assessing each animal as to whether we think it would be ok to go home the same day or not. Speys we will always keep overnight, generally because it's not a small operation and it's just our choice. I just don't think people should write off a vet that chooses to keep them in overnight- they obviously have their reasons and in most cases, they would feel its for the good of both the animal and the owner.

Both clinics I have worked at have done this. The idea behind it was so that the dog would be kept quiet and confined and able to sleep off the affects of the anaesthetic. There were too many cases of owners not understanding their dogs had just had surgery and didn't follow instructions to keep pup quiet and thus ended up upsetting the wound. Also, a lot of owners tend to stress too much if they see their dog being quiet etc, so by keeping them in overnight, allows both the dog and the owner to get a good nights sleep.

We're about to start stocking the EP Holistic in our clinic. We've spoken with the rep on several occasions and at no time was there any mention of importation being discontinued. But I think I may call her tomorrow to find out for sure.

But how would you explain this theory within a litter of pups, where only one or two was unlucky enough to have allergies, even though they'd all been raised in the same environment?