stormie

ok you asked for it! so that pink knobby thing in the middle is just a type of hyperplasia, from the skin being inflamed and irritated for so long. Those little growths extended as far as we could see and that combined with the general skin being so inflamed and calcified/thickened, you just couldn't see any sign of any type of hole into the ear. This dog also was not a happy dog - eating stuff ok, but just its general behaviour was that of a p*ssed off dog. One of our local Derms (bit of a ear man) reckons he often sees a dramatic improvement in a dogs behaviour once he's sorted out problems like this. Not surprising really, when you consider how awfully painful and uncomfortable it would be to live with both your ears like that!!

Masons Mom - I know of a number of people who have informed me their dogs are allergic to pollen/plants. I cautioned them about using the Calendula Tea wash carefully (eg. test patch). Yet they've come back to me to advise it helped immensely. Yes, I do have a lot of faith in the Calendula, but I am very aware that whilst something might work successfully for many, "many" doesn't mean "all". If there is no change for the better in terms of rash/red skin (if that's what your dog shows as a symptom) once you've applied one more time and certainly, if the itching is also not reduced inside 24 hours of the next application of it, then I would question its effectiveness on your dog. Foremostly, if there is any worsening of either skin or itching, cease use completely. Remember too that the Calendula only serves to reduce/ease the symptoms and that it is not a cure. I will try it again tomorrow, I wanted to do it today but Mason was shaking his head so much this morning I made a vets appointment for after work, I thought it was an infection starting deep down in his ear but its actually a ball of hair stuck in there. We have to try flush it out or else next week he has to be sedated and have it manually removed. I am so hoping it comes out this weekend!!! Fingers crossed for you! We're SO SO lucky we don't get ear troubles, as many atopic dogs also suffer chronic ear infections. You should have seen the dog we saw today. Dog with chronically infected ears which unfortunately the owners never really got to the bottom of and fixed, and now they're so bad the dog doesn't even have visible ear canals - its so thickened inside from the chronic inflammation that we couldn't even get a tiny catheter in there. Poor guy is probably going to have to have a complete oblation (ie completely dug out) of both ears. I have a picture if you want to see, but it's pretty feral!!

Yep - the pollens/plants thing sucks. We're trialling the Essential 6 Spot On which is said to help replenish the skins natural barrier. Trouble is, its full of all these plant oils. They say its hypoallergenic and I know the Sydney Uni Derm is using it a lot, but the second application saw Porp quite itchy the next day. He's due for his 3rd application now so will see how it goes. I must say though, his skin and coat is looking and smelling much better, but so far no reduction in itching. Thankfully with the weather cooling down it means I can start putting his pyjamas on more often, which protects him from absorbing the pollens and sees a real reduction in the itching.

You do get dogs that cant tolerate the Cortisone though and it makes them feel worse than what the ailment its supposed to be treating does. My dog just cannot tolerate cortisone it doesnt agree with him. Oh for sure, same with AB's and every other drug. And its the same with natural remedies too. Calendula tea didn't go well for Orbit, but he's highly allergic to plants and pollens, so I had a feeling that would happen. Oatmeal is another thing that I can't put on his skin - allergic and makes him worse than before we started. I was just giving an opinion more so on why it seems it is prescribed so much, because it's often the first course of treatment to fix the problem. If it doesn't work, then it's time to look at working up the problem to find out the cause and going from there. As for whether or not people chose to go down that path, well that's up to the owners and I can tell you from experience atleast 75% don't because they can't afford it and just don't see the point in putting so much time, effort and money into something that for a lot of people, is 'just a dog'.

I get what you're saying Erny and I wish it was that simple, but seeing the dogs that come in on a regular basis, its not always that simple. Calendula may work on some dogs, but it's not going to work on all of them. Cortisone, on the other hand, does work and can actually be the 'fix' they need to break a cycle. But I can tell you pretty confidently that suggesting to our clients with allergic dogs that they should spray tea on their dogs, would probably see them frustrated that they and their dog has not gotten any relief and would go somewhere else - frustrated because they got no relief, and also because they have to pay for a second consult to get what they need. Cortisone can actually help with the diagnosis process, believe it or not. Some dogs just get a one off skin irritation and a simple course of pred will break the itch/scratch cycle and the dog will be fixed. If after the course, the problem doesn't return, then you can assume the dog just got into a plant or something that upset the skin. However when the itching returns after the course, then you know you are dealing with something more chronic and know its time to look into further testing. I guess what I'm trying to say is the reason these two things are probably prescribed so often, is because they are both important initial treatments to fix a problem. If the problem keeps recurring, then you know its something chronic and you need to do more investigating. Further down the track when we know we're dealing with something more chronic do we start to suggest some of the other things, like oil supplements, soothing shampoos, lotions etc, to help reduce the symptoms. But whilst getting to the diagnosis, which after all is our job, its we need to provide relief to both the patients and the clients.

This isn't entirely correct. A dog on a dose of cortisone which is too high, can and will eventually develop symptoms of Cushings, however once the cortisone is reduced, these symptoms will eventually go away. If cortisone is going to result in any disease, it's more likely to be Addisons, not Cushings. Orbit has been on Cortisone since he was about 3-4months old and is now nearly 3. He has been managed by my vet really well and we haven't really seen any significant side effects from it yet. The following is a dog which the owners would not treat with cortisone and chose 'natural remedies'. It's actually a lab, though its skin is so inflamed it looks more like a Shar Pei. I don't know about you guys, but I think this is just plain cruel... I'm not saying everyones dogs who aren't on cortisone look like this, but after seeing things like this all the time, you can understand why I think some dogs would really benefit from it and provide immense quality of life.

What sort of 'parasites' and 'Dermatitis' are we talking? We often operate on dogs and cats with fleas and unless it's really really bad and greatly affecting an animals health, would also operate on a dog that has dermatitis. I find it strange that surgery was put off because of those things, unless we're talking something that is greatly affecting the health of the dog.

I guess I probably see it all in a completely different way to other people. Take the Calendula Tea Spray for example. They know that the anti inflammatory properties come from the faradiol monoester found within the flowers right? So I would rather use just that component, purified, so I that I know that's all I'm putting on him, rather than the rest of the flower, unless I knew exactly what else was in that plant. So for me its the same with AB's for example. Rather than giving a herbal remedy that has antibiotic properties, I'd rather use the purified form, because of its predictability and effectiveness. Cephalexin (the common AB used for skin) is derived from a type of naturally occuring fungus, but they have isolated the AB component and purified it. I guess thats just the way I am. Part of me likes using AB's and cortisone because not only is it scientifically proven to be effective, but I also know WHY it's working and what potential side effects are, so I know what to expect and when to cut back etc. I'm not against natural/herbal etc treatments at all. In fact I think I'm probably more the way I am because I work with a very open minded vet who doesn't push drugs and encourages people to play with diet and other things, so I don't really see much of the 'drug pushing' so to speak that quite possibly goes on by other vets.

Not as obviously as the main ones, but seeing they don't really fit into either of the other two types, they would probably be classed as brachy Ah I had read they were not classed at brachy but could suffer from the same airway obstruction syndrome as brachy breeds (eg pugs, boxers) I don't really know, just that I wouldn't think they'd be Dolicho or Meso.

Not as obviously as the main ones, but seeing they don't really fit into either of the other two types, they would probably be classed as brachy

Monthly all the way here - I wouldn't go the injection even if you paid me

Obedience may help, but I think you're going to have to work on the issue whilst out walking. I find the excitement level at obedience much lower than when out walking. At 'school', Orbit is great, in fact, he really seems quite bored with it, and exercises like passing other dogs etc mean nothing to him. Get him out on a walk though and passing other dogs and it's quite different and I actually have to put in more work and corrections with him. I agree with sas' advice to seek out a behaviourist to come and do a 1 on 1 session with you to see how she behaves first hand.

I'm assuming he's a little overweight, hence the diet, so I'm guessing he's probably not all that active, which means he's probably burning very little in the way of calories. Basically, if his body is still storing fat, he's taking in too many calories so it's time to cut back even more. Once he loses enough to feel more active again, you'll find the weight will come off quicker and he may need to be fed more. But whilst he is storing the fat, you will need to cut back even more.

Oh wow what a lovely thing you've done for such a beautiful boy!! Such a lucky little man!!!

I'm not sure if that question was directed to me or to Stormie, Masons Mom. Or perhaps both of us. Neither... But Masons Mum - yep, that's how I personally think things should happen. Vets can do the basics (so long as its done thoroughly) like making sure things like flea allergy, scabies mites etc are completely ruled out and also putting the dog on a strict elimination diet to cover that aspect too. Once that's done, you're free to allergy test which can be done a few ways these days. Intra Dermal tests are the preferred, however you need a 12wk period of *drug free* for accurate results, which for dogs like Orbit, just isn't possible. We did 2 different blood tests - very simple and pain free and both tests gave us similar answers. It was a damn long process, but atleast I know what Orbits main triggers are. For example, I know that chicken and fish is completely out of the question. I also know that pollens are a big problem so I have methods to help there. Cats are another thing on his list, so I know to be prepared when we go to visit my mum because she has 2 cats and he flares up bad there. I think the same thing goes with stomach upsets too. These days, there are simple blood tests for EPI, or biopsy's can be done to diagnose Inflammatory Bowel Syndrome. I can't give exact figures off the top of my head re Dermatologist success rates, but we have had a number of clients who had referrals, who got marked improvements from their treatment without even needing to resort to allergy testing. They're specialists for a reason and know everything there is to know about animal skin. We have a cat whose allergies have been completely cured with immunotherapy, so they are out there!!

I can relate to that. I think this probably illustrates why it's possibly the best thing to get an actual diagnosis first, before anything else. Because for us, it's completely the opposite and regular washing with something very mild helps, because being atopic, he absorbs pollens through his skin as well, so regular washing/rinsing actually reduces what is absorbed and helps to reduce his itching! Another thing which I think makes it hard, is the way you diagnose allergies/atopy. It can only be a process of elimination. Say John Smith comes to see us with Rex who has itchy skin. To relieve Rex's discomfort, he's given a short course of Pred. Now if it was just a secondary problem, because of some plant reaction, Rex might get better and not get itchy again. This isn't all that uncommon and many dogs just get given a single course and are 'fixed'. But if its an allergy, he will get itchy once the Pred wears off. So John and Rex come back. So we discuss allergies. Talk about eliminating parasites, foods etc first. Talk about supplements to help with the skin and then referrals to Derms. In most cases, Mr Smith doesn't want to know about all this. The pills worked the first time, so lets just have them. If only there was a simpler way to get to the final diagnosis that doesn't involve the months of elimination prior to getting to the end.

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean by legs that don't bend properly. But I do think there are a number of breeders out there who seem to be capitalising on size and wanting to breed the biggest, tallest Danes. My understand is that a Dane should be 'square' in that it is roughly as long as it is tall? Most of the Danes I saw recently at a show all looked to be pretty nicely proportioned, but I have definitely seen some bad examples of dogs that were way too tall with no fronts which did make them look quite odd.

If you don't mind Erny, I'd love to also know for those who do use regular AB's or Cortisone, who has tried/exhausted all other options? eg did they do desentising injections, homeopathics, etc?

I don't think you came across as angry at all Erny - hope you didn't take that from my post either. I do understand where you're coming from - I guess that I see it from a completely different view to you. The way I see it, if there was another option for people that actually worked, we'd be prescribing that, if you know what I mean. I think most cases of bad skin we see are either seasonal, where a couple of oral courses of Pred work and do little harm, or are cases where the dog is otherwise healthy, and has developed inflamed skin and just need a course of either or both to break the cycle and the dog then returns to normal. Like I said before, I believe they are prescribed because it's the appropriate treatment which works, just like we fix a wound with stitches - it's just the treatment. It's a tough one when you're in the industry. Because on one hand, you get people like yourself who want to avoid the drugs, which is totally fine, but then there's the other type of people (and from our experience is actually the majority) who don't want to spend any more than they have to and actually get frustrated when you start talking to them about oil supps, diet changes etc because it's all too hard, and just want the simple dose of pills to fix the problem, which has worked every other time!

Orbit is given regular cortisone. He was prescribed this at about 4 months old because he was itching so bad he would cut himself open. Cortisone was given because its an anti inflammatory, and the reason he was itching was due to inflammed skin due to allergies. Occasionally he has really bad flare ups, where he develops secondary skin infections, which in turn make him even worse. It is then I give him a course of AB's because again, I know it's going to work and treat the bacterial infection and thus relieve his symptoms. He has since been diagnosed as Atopic. He has a number of things he is allergic to. Personally, my view on why this treatment is used so frequently, is because they are the only treatments which are proven to work to relieve the symptoms (I'm talking bad cases of Atopy here, not just a dog that gets flaky skin or a few bumps here and there), both scientifically and evidently. From my vets experience, given the option of a simple course of tablets every couple of months, or for those with extreme allergies every second day, or spending thousands at the Derm for a treatment which may not even be successful, most chose the simpler, cheaper option. Why do I chose this drugs? Because it gives my dog a 'normal' life, with quality. I've tried herbal and homeopathic remedies, all different types of oils, supplements etc, antihistamines (every type) and nothing gives him enough relief like Cortisone does. Without it, he's unhappy, he gets hot from the constant inflamed skin and the action of scratching and he doesn't sleep at night because he's so itchy. He goes off his food because he feels so crap and you can't even pat him because it makes his skin crawl. Am I worried it will shorten his life? Somewhat, but I would much rather have him lead a happy normal, yet shorter life, than withhold drugs which give him quality of life to keep him around longer for my sake, living in constant discomfort.

I think it's kinda great that they were honest enough to admit there was a problem and also that they drove the 8 hours to ensure the puppy made it back to you. It could have been much worse with a puppy in the pound! Moosemum you obviously made them feel comfortable enough to do this, so hats off to you too!

We've done a number of ops to cut these away. See them commonly in Boxers, too. I wouldn't really call it a 'serious' operation. It usually doesn't take long to cut it out and the mouth is wonderful at healing itself quickly. I'd do pre anaesthetic bloods, but wouldn't be too worried about operating on an 11yo. We regularly do GA's on animals over 12 - commonly dentals, tumour removals etc and it's never a big ordeal.

Yep what others have said. We had a JRT that had two loose patella's. She's do a couple of skips when she ran but it never caused her any pain at any time of her life. I've seen others though, where it is quite painful and surgery is really the only option. So I think it depends on the severity and whether the dog feels any pain or discomfort.

I would think that a large breed dog between 6-9months could easily cope with a 10min daily walk? Whilst its true you don't want to damage joints, you do need to strengthen muscles etc. Its also good to get them out around their neighborhood, smelling different smells, hearing different sounds etc. Over 9-10months you could, IMO, be doing atleast 15mins walks and longer still over 12months. I was taking Orbit out on leashed walks from 4months old! We started out just going a couple of houses down and back, but we incorporated sits and other things whilst we were out. As he got older, we just slowly went further, until he hit 12months or so when I could take him out for 20min walks. The walks I talk of aren't 'proper' walks like we do now, just literally quietly walking down the street and back.

Agree with you, blab. But doesn't mean a dog can't be otherwise healthy. Orbit is VERY limited in what he can eat and now only gets one type of animal meat. He has turkey meat and necks as his diet, occasionally he gets beef liver and kidneys, but they give him terrible black diarrhoea even in very small amounts. He gets a multivitamin a couple of times a week. He is in great heath (other than his allergies of course but that's a completely different issue). I'd love to be able to feed him a bigger variety of meats but I can't because he's allergic to most of it. So turkey it is! And he does great on just that. Some might argue that its not a 'balanced' diet and not what the prey model or barfers would call ideal, but, its ideal for Orbit!