stormie

No idea.. probably. I know its just a business move, but I hate that these big companies own the pet foods. It's like Colgate-Palmolive owning Hills. On a separate topic, does anyone know anything about the dog testing colonies owned by these companies? I was told Hills have a colony of about 1000 dogs where they do all their testing??

That sucks... but gotta say, I think he looks very handsome and svelte :D

I think BB meant an unaccepted feature, rather than disqualifying fault, eg in our breed, merlequins etc should all be put in limited.... (but I do completely disagree with this idea, as previously discussed in the other thread)

But I want to know HOW it over rides it. What does it do to the pups immune system? Is it stronger and hit them harder, to over ride it? Might contact the companies...

Yep, Porp has come to work with me every single day since I got him at 9wks. In my previous clinic he had a bed next to my chair in the staff room and just hung out there all day, but at the new clinic he's in the backyard with the Boss's Newfy and Xbred, with beds and crates in their laundry for sleeping. Though when its quiet, he's in the waiting room sleeping next to me behind the desk.

Does anyone wonder exactly how this vaccine is guaranteed to overcome mothers maternal antibodies? If anyone can give info on exactly how it does this, I'd love to read it. I know one company tried to sell us their brand of vacc's (though can't remember if they finished earlier as puppies) and pushed the fact that they hit the immune system harder. Not something we were all that keen on!

True, but I think we're overestimating the general dog owners ability. The majority of the DOL community are quite dog savvy, in all aspects of ownership, but I have to say a large amount of the dog owners we see really have no idea. Take the phone call I had the other day - An owner called up asking if they can start feeding their 3month old small breed puppy adult food now, because it won't stop mouthing. They genuinly believed that a) the biting/mouthing would cease once the dog becomes and adult, and b) feeding it adult food would turn the dog into an adult. We deal with people like this all the time...

So apparently P&G has bought Natura, the makers of Innova. P&G owns the Eukanuba and Iams range. Will be interesting to see whether or not a) the ingredients change and b) we see other outlets able to sell it other than just the PP chains.

I would have this upcoming vaccine done, then either titre test after it, or go onto the 3yearly regime following it.

This is basically why I decided to desex Archer at 7 months. He started marking and while that in itself wasn't a big deal, I started thinking about other potential behavioural challenges that we might face by leaving him entire for longer and decided that I just wasn't confident enough in my training ability to take that risk. That, and every vet I asked (4 in total) recommended 6 months. Exactly, and whilst this is a behavioural issue too, it is triggered by testosterone. You'd be surprised at how many older, desexed males we see that still pee all over everything like they're entire, because a) they were left entire and b) the owners weren't knowledgeable enough to know how to deal with the behaviour and correct it. In saying that though, we do see entires who don't mark inside, but that is usually because they're with experienced owners who have dealt with the behaviour from the beginning because they knew how. I've said it before and I'll say it again - I occasionally wish I desexed Orbit before he reached sexual maturity because it did alter his behaviour somewhat, which has stuck around. Obviously this was partly me because I had never had an entire male before and may not have been a strong enough leader at the time and enforced the rules hard enough, but prior to him reaching maturity, this wasn't a problem - it was when testosterone was flooding his body that his overall attitude changed and his confidence and cockyness increased.

If it was my dog, I'd probably wait till the 8-9months, depending on how he handles his hormones. But I would also say 6months is fine. Some people say 'early' desexing increases risks of things like bone cancer etc, but really, unless you left that same dog entire, you can't be sure the dog wouldn't have ended up with osteosarcoma anyway. Yes, I've seen a number of cases of testicular cancer in older, entire dogs. I'd rather chop them off when they're young and healthy than wait till they're older and have cancer. My Dane Orbit was always lighter in frame than other Danes. I waited till he was 18months old and he was still quite light at this age, but since being desexed he has still filled out considerably, to the point he looks much like other Danes his age. It's not like once you desex, they stop growing and filling out completely. I think the main advice here though, is find a new vet. You don't want a vet who dictates to you what you should be doing in this circumstance. Having an entire dog is not for everyone and I think it's a little bit irresponsible people suggesting others keep their dogs entire for life. Entire males are a whole different world of responsibility, training and leadership, IMO, that not your average pet home can and want to provide.

I vote anal glands too - she may have an infection, or they may be full and she's licking them a lot, thus her stinky breath too

Prior to work having a hydrobath, I used one of the plastic shower attachment hoses you get from KMart etc in the bath. It was a pain getting it on the end of the forcet though, but once I did, it worked a treat for a good couple of years. Was awesome for washing my hair when I had a hot bath too

BB - again I get what you're saying but it's not always as simple as just teaching the owners how to do it. You should come spend a week here with me and see the different types of owners you get walking through our doors. We often see out of control dogs, not because the owners are too soft, but because their dog doesn't BELIEVE their corrections. And that's the thing - you can't always teach someone to be more assertive and give off a commanding energy. Particularly if they have been scared by their dog once before. Some people have a natural ability to be leaders, like animals, but some just don't, and it's here that you need to be able to compromise, because it's not as simple as just teaching someone how to correct harder. It doesn't matter how much you hurt or correct the dog, as I said before, because if you don't back it up with your energy, they don't believe you and it will mean nothing. Take a friend of mine for example. Her family has 4 dogs. One of the dogs ( a small Shih Tzu X), can't be touched by anyone in the family, let alone picked up etc. It tries to bite them if they want it off the couch and also around meal times. This dog came to stay with us for a few days. At no point whatsoever did this dog give us any cheek. In fact, when we approached him, he'd actually lay down and roll onto his back and submit. I was picking him up and doing all sorts of things with him because I had no idea at the time that he would normally bite his family. And there's the difference - we were confident and assertive with him because we knew his behaviour was a result of their behaviour. But no matter how much we try to explain to her how to deal with him, no one in the family is capable. They are just not capable of corrections and even if you showed them how, they would never be able to replicate it because it's just not their personality.

Try buying beds for giants! Most of the beds I have seen that are big enough for Orbit have been around the $250 mark, sometimes more. I was stoked the other day to find massive beds, around 130-140cm x 100cm for only $179, because that for me, is a bargain!! This was at PetCare 2000 in Castle Hill - very reasonably priced

It's obviously appropriate enough to assume what the trainer has done to date isn't working otherwise the OP would have no reason to post about it.............would she???. It's obvious the trainer is a friend of yours Huski..........how about separating friendship and training ability and you may just see a different perspective of the situation I think that's maybe a bit of an over assumption. Again, I get where you're coming from because you would think if they're getting help, there'd be no need to ask a question. But I think you're forgetting that the original question was based around desexing, whether that aspect could be the cause of the behaviour, not that they were requesting help for the behaviour. So to give my opinion to the OP's original post, I agree with what the majority have said in that desexing will not magically stop the behaviour, BUT, removing testosterone from the equation may make him an easier dog to train, with more focus going on you. I find that once entire dogs are desexed, their general behaviour, whilst still may remain the same, has just been stepped down a notch - ie its not so full on, which can help you to get control and work with them easier than you would if you were dealing with the raging hormones as well.

BB - strangely, I think I understand what you're saying and part of what you're saying, in terms of training methods, I actually agree with. I see it all the time with a trainer I know, who is only about 'positive' training. I have nothing against positive only, but it's interesting to see her deal with a situation which needs more, and unfortunately, she just can't. Rather than correcting the behaviour (and we're talking puppies here), it's just avoided. If two dogs are playing too rough and it gets a bit out of hand, one is just removed and distracted with food. Dogs that aren't food motivated or don't respond to the positive training by her, are classed as 'failures' with big problems, when really, I think these dogs could all do with a bit more correction to get the message across. BUT, I don't think that's its as simple as telling the OP that this is all their dog needs, because no one other than her and her behaviourist have seen the dog in action. Perhaps it could have benefited from your style of training in the early days, but to suddenly start correcting the dog firmly, without having a professional there to show you how, could be dangerous. Because you would know, of course, that dogs don't just respond to the physicals, but also your general confidence. It doesn't matter how hard you correct, if you don't mean it with your presence, it means nothing. It's not about the pain or the strength of your correction.

Ah yes - Serenia. Which is meant to have a very high success rate. Except that our first and so far only client to try it, still ended up with a vomiting, car sick dog

Ooh yay that they came in!! And awesome that you don't need any more vaccines! I really should get off my bum and do Orbits

I think the profession needs to step up and focus on some generic business things like professional service and communication. It's not enough to just say 'we'll do everything', clients need to know what the options are, the difference between them and they need to make the decisions based on correct information. They need to know what the forms say. We need to dot the I's and cross T's and document everything. If people want a little of column A and little of column B, they can have it. If something is 'necessary' it no longer becomes optional (in an ideal world). Necessary means I will not proceed without it. Some things are highly desirable (such as blood work) in many situations but we are regularly put in situations where we have to get the best outcome we can within in a set $$ limit. Do we spend the money on our best guess treatment that might not work? Do we spend the money on diagnostic tests? Do we get some basic information to do some rule outs and then go with treatment? Vets makes the decisions about whether there is an option A, B and C and we are advocates for the welfare of the patients but we are not the one paying the bills. Clients need to know what the options are, what the benefit or risk of each is, the cost of each etc etc. It's not enough to just say 'most young dogs don't need a preanaesthetic test so we wont discuss them' because there will one day be the case where something DOES go wrong and it will probably happen to someone who said 'I didn't know I could have a test done'..... I get what you're saying Rappie, I just don't think that clients really do need to know all that. I agree - communication is hugely important and I think that's what kept us from going in the way of packages. Our clients trust their animals in the hands of our vet entirely - they know he's the professional and leave it up to him as to what needs to be done. There are no options to them because it's just done if it needs to be. If we think something looks a little pale prior to surgery, we'll do a PCV. We communicate with the owners, the path labs and make a decision whether or not to proceed. If pressure drops too much during surgery then we run in fluids and do whatever else needs to be done. I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't like the idea of owners having to make those decisions, particularly when cost is involved. There is already such a problem with people thinking vet fees are too high, so how is it improving the image of the industry by letting owners chose what treatment they have, based on what they can afford. The fact that pain relief is offered in some of these packages seems wrong to me too. And in so many cases, the only pain relief they get is a shot of Metacam or Rimadyl etc, which really, isn't that much different than giving them an aspirin. So what's the point in that really? If you're going to offer pain relief, atleast make it an opioid which will actually make a difference. But really, it should just be included as part of the surgery cost. Like I said, I'm not opposed to doing all these pre anaesthetic tests at all. I talk about it with my boss every week and it's something we'll probably start doing once we've upgraded our inhouse machine. But it will never be part of a package and never be something that a client will have to decide on or not. The cost of surgery will likely just go up to account for the extra test and we will explain to clients exactly what the price involves.

good idea... Hope it's nothing too serious

$700 for an xray is completely absurd - a good vet/nurse combo should be able to hold her still without needing sedation and the actual xrays shouldn't cost more than about $150. Get a second opinion... you really need an xray done to know what's going on because it could be quite serious

I really suggest that if you're going to raw for allergies, that you do a proper elimination style diet first. Trust me, I wasted time and money initially switching to raw without doing the diet first, all the time feeding him things like chicken and fish heads, only to work out later that he is allergic to chicken. So I'd chose a single, novel meat protein and feed just that if you can... I used horse as I could get both the muscle meat and brisket bones, so could feed a combination of the two. When I switched to purely raw, I just did a straight swap. Orbit was getting very regular bones and meat though so it wasn't like it was a complete change to his system.

The collars are supposedly coming soon...

I dunno, I still just don't see the need for the packages. Vets should be doing what they deem necessary to ensure the animal gets through the surgery and home to its owners. If a dog needs fluids during a surgery, its just done, same as if it needs any other drugs along the way and we take the cost. The way we see it, is it's all part of the surgery - not just the chopping and sewing, but keeping them alive and well under GA. If an owner is unsure about a wound after surgery, they can come up 20 times a day for a week if they really want to, and they'll be seen for no charge, no questions, because it's our job to make sure the incision, which we made, is clean and healthy. I just think having all these options has the potential to make things so complicated, and potentially creating build up in your waiting room. It's so much easier to admit patients when you just need to get the forms signed and do the basic checks, rather than discuss options and deal with people who want a bit from column a and a bit from column b. If they want to stay overnight, no worries - we encourage it and it's of no extra cost. I know this is going to sound silly, but it does sadden me a bit seeing so many vets going this way. What happened to the community vet who just did whatever was needed for their clients and patients. It just all seems to be turning very commercial....