stormie

The thing is, is that a living body never went to school to learn what's good or what's bad. It simply just deals with whatever its presented with and has no idea whether what's just been put in, is natural, artificial etc. If you define 'chemical' its just a substance. Glucose is a chemical, yet it's something the body deals with every day, with no ill effects. There's no differentiation between 'natural' and artificial because the body doesn't know. I could go and eat a whole lot of the plants in my backyard, which are natural, but still die, because they're poisonous and the way the body reacts to them is bad. When you give a drug, like a NSAID, for example, the body doesn't say 'oh, here's a non steriodal', it just takes it for what it is - a whole bunch of molecules joined together in a certain way, and processes them accordingly. It's simply in our brains, we think of things as being good or bad, but this does NOT happen in the body. The digestive tract is also considered a place for foreign material. So giving a worming pill, which works within the GI tract, has no measurable effect on the immune system. Having the skin surface broken by the bite of a flea, whose mouthparts contain a tonne of bacteria, would quite probably have a more measurable effect on the immune system, than if you were to apply a flea product like Advantage, which stays on the surface of the skin. People are always going to have their own opinions on this, which I get, but I just more needs to be understood about how the body actually works, rather than just sprouting out stuff that in theory, sounds good, but really, makes no sense at all.

Actually you'd be hard pressed to find a dog here who has never had chemicals cause it probably would have died of parvo or worm or flea burden. Most people who own large/giant breeds would advise against feeding raw to a growing pup, due to the damage you can do to their joints if you get the ratios wrong. But I can tell you about dog I know who was raised on a raw diet, only received its puppy vacc's and no other chemicals, yet died at around 2yo of an aggressive cancer. How would you explain this? I know of another Dane that the breeder raised on a raw diet that also has allergies. Can you provide evidence of your accusations against pet food companies, claiming they use the bodies of dead pets and road kill? I would like you to name the pet food company which is doing this. Animal bodies need to be disposed of in a certain manner but if what you're saying is true, then the companies who dispose of the bodies are lying and breaking the law. Also, drenches and other drugs used in farm animals have with holding periods and cannot be used for meat until after this time. The place I get my raw food from is pet quality yet they still abide by with holding periods and do not use any animal that has been given lethal injection as its against the law. I'm curious though, seeing you're so against any form of chemicals, you must raise your own animals to feed your dogs? Because human grade meat has been fed antibiotics and would have been fed on grains grown with chemicals. So if what you say is right, every dog who has ever consumed both commercial dog food or raw human grade meat from a supermarket, should have an allergic dog. This clearly isn't the case, so how come only some are and some aren't? Genetic predisposition maybe?

Moselle - here is one of Orbit's allergy results for you... The food component of these blood tests should be mostly ignored, however the chicken, fish and duck are true, based on food elimination. Brewers yeast was also something I thought made him worse too as does oatmeal, both ingested and used topically. Many very atopic dogs have multiple problems, ie environmental as well as food. Food allergies alone make up a very small percentage of allergic dogs. This test was done over 2 years ago now, so it's quite likely that if we ran them again, he'd have more positives than back then.

I think that article makes some good points, but also some over-generalisations & some outright mistake (for example, debarking a dog isn't actually punishment as it doesn't involve learning). But I'd like to see the paper it's based on before I really comment. Agree with over generalisation. "whether staring down dogs, striking them, or intimidating them with physical manipulation," - I would say these are extreme forms of adversive training and not used by many. I get confused about why it's ever an issue. I'm not a trainer or behaviourist, but my general understanding of dog interaction is that it involves corrections amongst each other a times. People talk about puppy licenses and say it's perfectly normal for an older dog to correct young puppies for crossing the line, sometimes with vocalisation, or a small physical correction. Surely this type of behaviour would be considered adversive? If one dog growls or nips at another to stop a behaviour and set boundaries, isn't this adversive? So if it's something dogs use between themselves as natural behaviour, surely it's not going to harm them if we mimic it?

Of course they can have side effects,but generally they relate to the site where the drugs work, or on the organs that metabolise the drugs. Generally they don't effect the immune system unless they are specific immune suppressants. All I'm trying to say is that there's so much more to it than just a case of giving a drug effects the immune system. The body is so complex and it's not a simple case of everything that enters the body, effecting the immune system, because this isn't the case. And no, Vets don't get paid by the companies for selling their drugs. Anyways, at the end of the day, I listen to the professionals - the Dermatologists who have studied their way to be Specialists in the field. If they say feel allergies are genetic and shouldn't be bred from, then this is what I believe to. If people want to ignore the advice of professionals then fine, but to knowingly breed with an allergic dog and hide behind a theory that it's only allergic due to chemicals, vaccines etc used on it in the past, is, IMO, really irresponsible.

That's interesting, re the oral papillomas, as I'm pretty sure that's one of the side effects of Cyclosporin, an immune suppressant. But the fact your dog has allergies, would signify his immune system is working! The reason Cyclosporin works is because it suppresses the immune system so the body no longer sends out the antibodies against the allergen. Weird!!

The mother of my boy never had chemicals in her system. She lives in a desert town and only ever had her puppy vaccs. People are of course entitled to their opinions, but if you take to to research the disease and spend time listening to the Specialists, eg Internal Medicine Specialists, Dermatologists etc, you realise it's so much more complex than just a matter of a dog having too many chemicals put on it. Remember too, when a drug is registered for use, they have to determine a safety threshhold. So they have lab dogs who are given a drug until it makes them sick. For example, it might take up to 10times the normal dose of Heartgard to make a dog sick. They do these tests because they need to know the safety. And they do it with many dogs. So there are dogs being pumped full of the general drugs we use, with no evidence that there was a negative immune response. There are specialists in the field who are doing research on this all the time. The same with the Vacc issue. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the chemicals and drugs we use are a problem. Like I said before, a Specialist who recently spoke on the issue of Vaccines, who recommends vacc'ing less often, said there's nothing to suggest Vaccinated too often can cause a problem. But rather, their research is more pointing to the concept that that dog already has some sort of immune problem which only takes on vaccine to trigger the problem. Another Small Animal Specialist who specialises in Immune Mediated diseases feels the same way. And all this is based on research.

So how would you explain my boy, who showed symptoms of allergy from 9wks of age, having only ever had his puppy vacc, coming from a breeder who is a 'only when required' medicator? IMO, the reason we're seeing more cancers, illnesses etc in our pets is because we now have the ability to diagnose them, where as in the past, we didn't. PEt care has advanced so much and people are willing to spend a lot of time and money to get to the bottom of an illness where as in the past, they most likely would have just been pts when they showed symptoms of something wrong. Now, we can safely sedate animals to investigate things easier. We can test for all sorts of diseases, do biopsies, xray, CT, MRI etc, all of which are capable of giving a diagnosis. In the past, many animals would have had cancer, but we just wouldn't have had the easy means to actually diagnose it, so they just got sick a died. We also have more and more drugs to treat conditions. Dogs in heart and kidney failure can be diagnosed then kept alive longer because of the drugs we now have access to. We can treat diabetes, which previously would have killed a pet relatively quickly. We can also treat adrenal problems and have special diets to deal with digestive problems etc. So not only are we able to diagnose more conditions, we can treat them to, where as previously this 'simple' problem would have killed them. So eventually they have to die of something. Stats show our pets are generally living longer, so of course as they age more we're going to see more problems as they get older. As for the 'more chemicals' in the environment issue, nope, I don't personally believe that is the CAUSE of the change in the body to release antibodies to certain substances. Just like I, along many Specialists, don't believe Vaccines to be the CAUSE of auto immune issues. I believe a dog is born with a genetic predisposition to have a 'dodgy' immune system. Giving a vaccine (something which elicits an immune response, not just a normal drug) can then be enough to cause a meltdown with that particular animal, and result in physical symptoms of immune problems. I do not believe that any of these dogs with allergies or immune problems were born with perfectly normal immune systems which then went bad. And I base my beliefs on the studies done by Specialists in the fields, not just personal theory

I'm embarrassed to say that Orbit too has somehow managed to get stuck inside the doona cover.

VJB - Sparky and Gem dug up what we're now pretty sure was a body bag, buried in their backyard atleast a year ago, before Ian moved in. They ate the contents (RIP Kitty (?) ) Probably being kept in the plastic bag had prevented whatever was in there, from decomposing. Anyways, both had a bit of a spew the next day and threw up the foulest smelling stuff I've smelt in a long time, consisting of some sort of skin tissue, fur etc. Other than the spew though, both were completely fine!!! So after seeing that, I've decided not to worry about feeding meat that might smell a bit suss!!

I think if you read orbit other post's you would be well aware that the dog has had all the care under world given & vet treatment BUT there comes a time where you can pay $1000 each year with no result from vet /holistic etc etc. People then go down the path of what best maintains that animal condition at it's worst time. We see people who bring there dogs here who have spent a fortune on there dogs care with no end result except simply being ask to put there hands in there pocket & spend more & more. I too am not a believer of "easy option " of pills but also appreciate for some dogs it is a must & like the food debate the same applies . If these people choice to neglect the meds that brought/bring comfort to there animals after many avenues had failed then they would be accused of not given the right care. If the answer was so simple there would't be a need for pills & hands in the pocket Thank you showdog Moselle, I take extreme offence to you inferring that by giving my dog cortisone for relief, I am taking a short cut. Orbit was itchy from the day he came home to me at 10wks of age. I tried diet changes, supplements, oils, shampoos, homeopathics, herbs, lotions, detox's etc. I consulted with Dermatologists to eliminate the possibility of scabies, FAD, fungal and bacterial infections. I have done thyroid testing and skin biopsies. I had two separate allergy blood tests done, because intra dermal tests were not possible for us because of the withholding period required. I have a list of everything in the environment he is allergic to. I have done desensitising injections. I feed him raw and struggle at times to find novel protein sources so I can repeat food elimination diets with him. He cannot have contact with grass or plants without becoming extremely itchy hours later. I have to put towels down on the back lawn for him to lay on when he eats his bones. He is still itchy. And with most atopic dogs, he will get worse as he gets older. He is itchy all the time. And on top of being chronically itchy, he then has the 'bad itchies' after laying on grass, carpet, brushing past plants etc. Perhaps you'd like to spend some time with a dog as allergic as mine and tell me how you'd cope? After a roll in the grass, that night, he doesn't sleep. He's too itchy to sleep. If you pat him or touch him, his skin quivers because it's so itchy. If he makes it to sleep, he wakes up as soon as he moves, because the motion of his skin moving makes him itchy. He chews himself till he bleeds. So yes, I give him cortisone because it takes away his misery. I also give him cyclosporin, at $550 for a 100ml, which lasts a dog his size about 2 months. So please, don't tell me I'm taking a short cut because I have spent the last 3 years living and breathing atopy and spending a good part of every single day, doing what I can to relieve his itching as best I can, to try and keep his medication rates down.

+1 Orbit has only ever had his puppy vaccines and minimal flea treatments etc and is on a raw diet. Yet he's still very allergic. Yes, he gets cortisone and other immune drugs, but only because they are the only thing that bring him relief. To say this is an absolute 'no no'?! How can you say this about a drug which provides comfort and quality of life for an animal? The RAW vs Kibble will always be an ongoing argument, but I think the subject is like religion - do your own research and make your own decision, but don't preach to other people. Not all dogs will do well on raw. Those who improved on raw were not 'cured' of their allergy, but merely relieved of their symptoms when the culprit allergen was no longer being fed in the dry food, eg a grain, storage mites etc. I know of one particular dog who was fed a raw diet all her life, only puppy vacc'd, never given oral treatments/chemicals/drugs, yet died at 2yo from cancer. My own family Golden Retriever was fed supermarket dry most of her life, had cortisone for flea allergy dermatitis here and there, vaccinated at times yet lived till till she was 16yo and was only pts because of joint disease. Dogs are all different - like people. Their digestive systems function the same but are not all the same, as with their bodies. If one dog thrives being fed a raw diet, then that's great, but I don't think it's fair to tell people something what they're doing is 'not the best' for their dog.

The Dermatologists say they're genetic and one of the first things we were told by two different ones was that in any case of an atopic dog, the people should notify their breeders. There is also some talk that some cases of canine allergic dermatitis is related to a skin barrier deficiency. There was a study being done by a Uni to try and find the genetic marker, so people can screen for it prior to breeding, but not sure how far they got. Found the article... There's also this...

can you explain what you mean about getting 'instant arthritis' and also describe what you mean by pancreatitis? I've never heard of a dog getting pancreatitis just from red meat - it's usually the fat content that upsets the pancreas and causes the problems.

My understanding is that inducing vomiting when something has a very full stomach can be potentially dangerous. There's a pretty strong force going on during the vomiting action, so forcing such a large volume out of something with a small opening can cause tearing/rupturing etc. It happens in bulimic people who binge and then try to purge. Glad to hear he's ok though.

woolies [the larger stores] prepackage turkey necks [4 to a pack] but i can't remember what i paid for 'em --- it certainly wasn't that expensive tho yeah I have got them from there for about $4.50 or so for a pack. At the moment I can get 15kg of turkey necks for about $33 so I just can't justify paying so much more. jayzuz!!! $2.20 per kg!!! man, i soooo wish i had the freezer space!!! Ebay is your friend I bought a second hand chest freezer so I can store up to about 8weeks worth of food at a time.

Wow he's a real cutie! Just a question though, why do you have to wait so long to start puppy school? You mentioned you've had him for 3 weeks and puppy school is still 3 weeks away, so assuming you got him at 8weeks of age, that will make about 14wks old by the time he starts school? From my experience, many puppy pre schools are happy to start them from 8wks of age, with similarly aged/vaccinated puppies.

woolies [the larger stores] prepackage turkey necks [4 to a pack] but i can't remember what i paid for 'em --- it certainly wasn't that expensive tho :D yeah I have got them from there for about $4.50 or so for a pack. At the moment I can get 15kg of turkey necks for about $33 so I just can't justify paying so much more.

It does look good and something I could feed Orbit, with his allergies, but $6/kg is just so expensive to feed a Dane, considering he'd be eating 500g a day and still need 1kg of bones at night. Their turkey necks are $6.50/kg which I thought was pretty expensive. I had hoped for a slighter better price for a 150kg total bulk order but alas, it wasn't to be.

Yep Erny they are the same PJ's. The first pic was when they first arrived. Not sure why they look like velvet, they are just a light polar fleece. One thing though, I added a bit of extra length to his when I gave the measurements, because I thought this would make them go up his neck higher. But instead, they do slide down over his bum a bit and if he moves around in bed, he has got his back legs out if they've slipped down far enough. So with anything this style, be sure to give accurate measurements!

Just found this one... gives you an idea of how comfy they are and easy to sleep in.. I have the Chilly Sweater and Great White North as well as general Weatherbeetas and these by far are the best. I love the Chilly's for during the day wear when he's playing with his friends, but yeah, these seem to be the most comfortable for him. BUT, they aren't the easiest to get on and off, but worth the extra effort

I have kickatinalong ones for Orbit... the front legs aren't as long as your pattern pic but I'm sure it'd be easy to do. I just love these PJ's - its the only thing both he and I are happy to have him sleep overnight in.

A lot of what has been suggested area great ideas, but I would second the referral to a dermatologist first. You need to get a proper diagnosis and work down a path of elimination. Changing the diet is all good and well, but it's not uncommon for allergic dogs to be allergic to both the environment as well as foods. So there's no point changing the diet if it still contains the same proteins found in the food you're feeding, in case there's an allergy to this. The Derms will eliminate other possibilities, such as fleas, scabies etc and also look to rule out bacterial and fungal infections, all of which can cause chronic scratching. They can also go through different antihistamines with you to try and find some that may provide relief. Fish oil can be great for skin problems, but again, pointless if it turns out you have a dog with a fish allergy. I understand your pain and am only suggesting this based on personal experience. I tried changing diets many times, using as many different supplements as I could find, different shampoos etc etc. It was all just wasted time and money in the end and I wish I had used this money to seek Derm help sooner. I have a dog who is allergic to the environment and food. He is always itchy, but rolling in grass, walking through plants etc make him insanely itchy as does eating chicken. He's also allergic to dust mites and cat dander so I am careful about carpets too. He is also allergic to oatmeal, so any of those soothing oatmeal based shampoos and conditioners also make him worse. Applying shampoos that have any plant based oils also are bad for him. Again, I'm not saying the above are bad ideas, more that, IMO, it's best to try and identify the problem first so you know where you stand and what you're free to work with, in terms of supplements, shampoos etc.

Oooh good luck with this one! Most kibbles use chicken or atleast chicken fat in their food. The EP Anchovy might not have any form of chicken though? I can't remember. Ideally though, you'd be better off doing a proper food elimination diet. The Eukanuba F/P (fish and potato) Response is the only commercial hypoallergenic diet that is safe to use in pups, even Large and Giant pups. The Protein and Fat levels are similar to Eagle Pack Large/Giant puppy, as is the calcium/phosphorus ration. BUT, its based on white fish and potato, and the Eagle Pack range has fish meal in it, so it may not be a completely novel protein source but it's worth a shot. Unfortunately though, the Euk Vet Range is out of stock due to a recall, so not something you'd be able to get for a while. A lot of people may come in telling you to switch to raw, or remove grains, which may not be a bad thing, but not something I'd recommend doing for a large/giant pup. I would probably suggest you look at seeking a referral for a Dermatologist though. They will be able to get you started on a process of elimination to help find the cause of the problems. Food allergies aren't really all that common, however in cases of itchy puppies, are more commonly the cause. But regardless of the stats, rather than spending money on different foods, supplements, shampoos etc, spend your money on a Dermatologist who will be able to give you a better diagnosis and sooner.

Same as us. If she was desexed the same day, it's quite possible it's just her reaction to the anaesthetic. She should be much better this morning.