Natsu chan

Basically Steve I think it comes down to greed and because they can. If the farmers stopped farming we'd all starve, but anything else it seems is open slather. Council's want permits for anything they can now. Not sure where to start myself. All the letters I sent out recently just got brushed off. It feels like the whole DD bill again.

Beets if you live in Melbourne ring the Monash Vet clinic they do pennhip and standard scoring and are very good.

Okay I went off and thought about this. The reason people jump up and down screaming for more laws is because when they see things happening they say to the RSPCA why aren't you doing anything. To which the RSPCA answer because we can't if we had more power we could. People of course believe this and then start demanding more laws. At no point does anyone ever point out that the problems are due to laws that already exist not being enforced so people believe that it's due to the law being inadequate. The RSPCA wants more power and more money so of course that's what they are going to say. There is no way that they will admit that they only go after soft targets because most of the big commercial farms have the funds to fight them in court which is exactly what they don't want. It also doesn't help that the likes of Hugh Wirth have their own agenda and use all these issues as a way to get more control to fore fill that agenda. The CC's are too intimidated to actually do anything and so the cycle continues and the laws just get more and more over bearing without anything actually improving.

It came out recently too that the dangerous dog laws in Victoria were actually brought in to prevent people from having time to mount a legal case against the councils. As fighting them was costing councils too much money. Brumby actually said this recently I can't think where I saw it. Now if that doesn't make you feel cynical I don't know what to say, it certainly reinforced my cynicism. The thing is pollies never seem to think past the next election and if it gets them votes they'll pass it what ever it is. The other problem is, that the vast majority of people can't see that nothing can be taken in isolation. Every law they bring in affects everyone it just cascades but most people can't or won't see that.

I think at this stage it would take more than just the CC fighting back it's gone too far. There are alot of people in the general public do actually believe all breeding is bad now but they can't or won't make the connection that no breeding means no pets. There is also an attitude that the RSPCA is incorruptible and completely incapable of being wrong. Most people just can't understand that there is no where to go if the RSPCA do the wrong thing...if they want to they can crush you and they know it. You only have to listen to Hugh Wirth and how smug he is to realise that when this new law goes through on the first day rangers will be down at the VIC dog office demanding the addresses of everyone who holds a prefix. To him that's exactly what it's about. I don't know what the answer is, and I'm slowly starting to think that there isn't one.

Sparkycat why should dog breeders be treated any differently from anyone else who breeds any other animal? It's singling people out, and why should the RSPCA who have an agenda to stop breeding be the ones doing the inspecting? Surely any inspections of anything should always be done by an impartial party? Especially given the RSPCA have written into the law a free rein to do what ever they like without any ombudsman or indeed any responsibility for their actions, good bad or indifferent at all? If you did this based on a persons sex, colour or religion there would be a massive out cry from the UN down! Steve you should be proud of your dogs, they are representative of your love, time, care and commitment. Now if only you bred collies.

Honestly 50 dogs isn't an issue for some people. They won't all be brood bitches, some will be young ones being run on, some oldies, some show stock. It's easy to scream puppy farmer at someone but the only way to stop puppy farming is to ban all breeding. From a legal perspective there is no other way. For a family all working together 50 dogs isn't really ridiculous. You do need a certain number of dogs to maintain a good gene pool when you're breeding and with all the desexing laws and every other restrictive law being brought in you are going to see that most kennels will just have to be run this way, other wise there will not be enough animals to maintain the gene pools. Not a dig at you personally but I can't understand how people can say they want to be able to own a pet but no one should be allowed to breed them. If we make breeding so legally restrictive that only commercial farms can afford to breed or ban breeding all together where do you think your next dog will come from? Back in the 80's I went to one of the last big kennels remaining in my breed, I won't mention how many dogs where there more than 50 though and a long coated breed too. Everyone one of those dogs was beautifully groomed, fit, shinning with health and happy. They were beautiful dogs and their owner contributed a tremendous amount to the breed in this country. It was like heaven a swirling mass of beautiful happy dogs, each one loved and valued for there own self. Including the grand old lady of the place who was 17 and still very healthy. It's not numbers it's care. That breeder and all those dogs are gone now but the legacy of all her work and effort is still alive and trotting around show rings and laying in whelping boxes nurturing the next generation. She was a Breeder not a puppy farmer but if you just look at the numbers and nothing else it would be easy to say other wise.

Ellz it's not your fault and I really hope you're right. I know I'm finding all the bs that's gone down in Victoria with dog related laws very demoralising. It really is getting to the point where dog lovers, breeders or not are getting rammed up against a bed of nails.

My guess is it will be exactly what they are pushing for here in Victoria and if that's the case it will simply mean more puppy farms and far fewer small breeders. It will also mean small rescues will have to fold up as they will have serious problems with placing animals in foster homes as all foster carers and rescues will fall under the same laws. It will mean the RSPCA having the right to come in and seize anything they like without pressing charges while demanding payment for all expenses up front. Mean while you have no rights. They can hold the animal indefinitely and charge you for it, without ever needing to even charge you with anything. The RSPCA has no ombudsman or overseer as it is, there's already issues that keep cropping up over and over. Why is it that people think that the police need someone keeping an eye on them but that the RSPCA who are being given the same sort of powers don't? People within the RSPCA are human and just as likely to be open to corruption or mistakes as anyone else, so why are they exempt from checks and balances?

Moselle if that's how you feel please please email or write to your local member before we have to vote. Tell them that the RSPCA has enough powers and that you think they should have an ombudsman just like any other department that is involved in law and order. Tell them that this bill will do the opposite of what people want. IF enough people do someone might listen. As it is we're all muttering amoung ourselves. Everyone needs to get out there and make a noise about all these things or we will end up having to buy our dogs from overseas or puppy farms. We need more education not more laws.

Poodlemum when Steve posted this I sent a letter to our local mps saying I didn't think they should be giving the RSPCA more power without putting any sort of ombudsman or anything else in place, and pointing out that this legislation would effectively end breeding of dogs outside of puppy farms and that that was the complete opposite of what people wanted. Doubt it will help any and I'm not much good at writing letters. I think this is a done deal on both sides and Hugh of course is very pleased with himself. The whole thing is an obscene waste of money which would be better spent on education.

Lappiemum we aren't and we won't be. The planning laws mean we can't be exempted. Getting an expention under the welfare laws doesn't mean anything it's just lip service.

Sickening isn't it? I suspected it was a done deal and there it is. Hasn't liberal said they'll bring these laws in too? Love Hugh Wirth's smug "we will win of course" comment....yep they just keep getting everything they ask for.

That's great Seita! It was just a thought CEA is very common in collies but the general consensus is mildly affected dogs have normal vision but I do notice in poor light some seem to show a little uncertainty. I knew borders do have it sometimes so the thought occurred. Ella is a very special girl.

KK I think you'll find that there's an exemption for sporting clubs too not sure where but in state or federal regs. Other wise there would be no local footy club, little aths or anything since most of those would be lucky to break even.

Seita is Ella CEA affected? I'm asking as I've seen a collie who was very very reliable at DJ do exactly the same thing in a twilight trial, he was mildly affected. I know I've heard an eye specialist say that their vision may be more affected by low light conditions. Just a thought. She corrected herself beautifully.

KK thank heaven for that! I think my heart stopped for a moment when I first read your post in general.

No I don't think it's that just that it's something that mostly will affect dog sports and sporting clubs (show dogs stay on lead and the average person who isn't interested in dog sports won't really see the problem). Most of the people who would be interested don't come in here so much. I don't think people in general really see or worry about flow on effects of things. I get you though KK. I've been interested in obedience since the late 80's. The world does not need more untrained dogs and not everyone wants or can afford private training. Dog clubs provide education and a support and social network that is really important for novice owners.

My guess is that it has something to do with the Dangerous dog laws they recently brought in. I can't see how being an all breeds club as opposed to a dog club would suddenly mean your club is a business. It makes no sense. Good luck with it please let us know how it goes. This might get more attention in the training forums it certainly needs more.

The cynical part of me thinks "ah they found a new way to make money how nice" but I don't know. It is a concern because dog clubs are actually important and we need them. Has your club contacted the mayor of your area about this? KK which club is this or what area is the club in? Has your club contacted the VCA? Southern and the clubs at KCC will be fine as they are all on privately owned property but the vast majority of obedience and sporting clubs in this state (and indeed this country!) run their activites on public land and are staffed by volunteers and run comps to help keep the clubs going. If the laws have been changed that is going to cause problems. If it is the case that it is now illegal to have dogs off lead at anytime unless it's a leash free park and that dogs clubs are now expected to be registered businesses we are in trouble. I know most people will roll their eyes at that comment but it is true. Dog clubs are not businesses they are sporting clubs, the last thing this country needs is anything that discourages sporting clubs and there for makes it less likely that people will go out and get some healthy exercise. Obedience clubs teach the average dog owner how to train their dogs, have fun with them and it means the dogs are far more likely to get out and about and socialised.

I know exactly what you mean Shel! We're still working on that too. Out of the ring she's great but when I go in the ring and start having a melt down the wheels fall off. Ah well, she won't be doing open so the longer it takes to title the more trials I have to enjoy. Right? Should point out you only have to have applied for your title to enter into the next level. It doesn't have to have come back from the CC, which is just as well really given how long that can take!

Shel, Koori has 4 CCD passes. She was entered in two trials in two weeks and gained her title the first weekend. We were give the option to do CCD or be moved up to novice, she wasn't ready for novice so she did ccd. South doesn't close until the 5th of November so I would leave it until the week before to enter. I don't think you need worry Miss Bronte is going brilliantly.

Shel it depends on the closing date for entries. Is this for southern?

I know I've told a few people about Judy none of them are dog people and they all say that it's impossible! Can't be true and if it was surely it would be in the media. Thing is most people believe that the RSPCA are under the control of a higher authority so they don't see the problem with increasing their controls. No one thinks this will happen to them. If the RSPCA gets these powers people will end up being bankrupted and I can see them being losing their homes with no charges being laid just because the RSPCA wants boarding etc fees being paid up front. I tell people this and they accuse me of histrionics, but when you have a mortgage etc you can't afford to have multiple thousands just disappear because someone thinks they might be able to prove you've done something..... I suspect it's already a done deal but I can try.

Steve my letters are about the fact that we don't need more laws nor more powers for the RSPCA (they have plenty to enable them to do some thing about dogs being kept in poor conditions such as Leo). And that what we really need is more accountability from the RSPCA which includes some sort of independent complains board. Also that the planning laws etc need to be tweaked to allow breeders some leeway with regards to whelping bitches inside since this is considered best practise and is backed up by research from the QLD uni. The laws will go through clearly but we can push for tweaking them. I don't think we can keep beating the dead horse the way we are and as Asal says we are all backyard breeders really. Much better to put more energy into education for the general public and for dog owners alike.