Natsu chan

What Jules and Ptolomy are saying with regards to the flip finish is exactly why I don't use it. I'm so glad someone else actually agrees with me about this. Sometimes I feel like obedience has become a whole different world from the late 80s early 90s when I was last involved in it. Jules I love playing with the round the back finishes, such fun to be able to walk along and have a dog trot round you from heel position to heel position especially when they're almost dancing with delight themselves. My girl wouldn't stay in the stand for exam either, she'll still wobble sometimes due to her injury. I've found just being patient and only praising her for standing solid helps if she moves I just go back to the heel position and heel off and try again. She understands now and you can see her trying so hard to stay still in stand for exam. She generally gets between 8 and 10 now as sometimes she just can't help but shift a foot when the judge makes contact. She tries so hard though. As for stays I prefer madame to relax, as though she only very rarely breaks it's when she's being alert and perky that she does. I stand there in the stays thinking 'now just have a little doze would you.' I know most people don't want that but if she breaks it's always up not down, weird creature only dog I've ever had that has a greater tendency to get up than to flop. Tess Noah sounds like such a bright spark, I thought he was only around 9 months but hey you're doing distance control he must be older. He sounds like my heart boy he was a little bright spark too. He was training open at 14 months and begging for more. In hindsight probably not the best idea but I was only 13 then. He loved to work, he was such fun and such a pleasure to train. They're great fun aren't they?

Which finish you use the flip or normal finish is just personal preference. I've never done flip finishes myself but often do the exercise Kavik mentions. At KCC sometimes you can see the German Shepperd people walking across the park doing this exercise as they go, their dogs have excellent focus. Dogdude is right of course about the possibility of the dog losing focus but ultimately it's up to you. The thing with distance control is that you're not teaching the dog to drop on command you're teach the dog to drop and stay on command. Which doesn't sound like a big difference but it is. Think about it when you first start teaching this the dog has usually never done a drop unless it's in the heel position, and when it does a stay it's been taught to hold the position not to be on the alert for a new command. So we're teaching two new things and it needs to be done increments. I teach it from a sit first. Then intersperse sit stays with dropping from a sit. I teach that by stepping in as I say drop so the dog physically can't move forward. Then praise, of course because aren't they clever and then returning around the back as in normal stays. Once that's concreted from a step away I train the same way from a stand. I only add distance when they will do both a sit stay, a stand stay, or a drop from either on command and only then one step at a time. That way it's clear that it's a stay - unless - I - say - otherwise. Then when you add it to the recall the dog already understands and holds the drop. Everyone does things differently though there's no right way, just play around until you find what works best for you. In my experience though the creeping usually comes from the dog not quite grasping that it's a drop and stay. Really though you're doing well Noah is only a young lad. For myself if he's happy with the normal finish I wouldn't worry about the flip but it's up to you. Do you want to teach him that? If so go right ahead, there's no reason not to. Have you started trialling the young man yet?

Oh yes LOL! Most collies are like that. They take a while to mentally mature I find. I've heard a lot of people call them lazy but I think that a lot of it is down to metal immaturity, when they're young they find it tiring to focus for long and once they get tired they switch off. I've found that with ours that they respond so much better to short bursts of concentrated work. Two 10 minute sessions a day broken up into 5 minute blocks with a break in between works for us, other wise yes they switch off but once they hit maturity they find it so much easier to focus. All bar one of ours have been like this. The one that wasn't was a little superstar from day one but that's not the norm at all! Why not give it a go, no harm in trying.

We're entered (for the state anyway) at this point but given little Miss keeps hurting herself I refuse to count my chickens. She's working beautifully...but knowing our strike rate she'll either hurt herself in the mean time or forget something basic on the day...like I don't know heeling. :D

The rule book actually says the judge: "must exclude from competition any dog, which the judges considers unfit or physically unable to compete." So it's one of those at the judges discretion things however there are dogs going around with problems who are perfectly healthy but require a vets letter to compete. My girl keeps coming up lame too so we've had to scratch from two trials this year. Just one of those things. I was in the same position as you with my old girl but she ended up with one leg longer than the other so her lameness was obvious even at a walk. She wasn't trialled for that reason, though she too was perfectly happy.

GoldD that's just disgraceful, locum or not a vet (or a Doctor for that matter!) should always check the file on a patient before administering anything. Giving your dog something without asking you first is just not on. I have a collie and every year, every vet I've ever seen applies pressure about the heartworm treatment even when the whole Collie invermectin sensitivity factor is pointed out to them. A lot just don't seem to care. I've even had one vet tell me that invermectin sensitivity is a load of bs ...the mind boggles sometimes it really does.

We ended up retiring. My girl has an old back injury and we had another dog jump on her a few minutes before we went into the ring, of course by then she was quite lame so we retired. We just don't have much luck I'm afraid. There's always something which is why we're still in CCD. Oh well. These things happen and Koo enjoyed her day out. We were in CCD ring three, I spied Kinta and watched before we left. Very nice and I think the 92 was well earned.

Leo I saw Kinta and you yesterday. I was in the same class but in a different ring. Your young lady did very well given the conditions which were awful. A lot of dogs weren't at all happy with doing sits and drops in the mud. Can't say I blame them really. Well done not only is Miss Kinta clever, she's a really beautiful girl too.

Luckydog, personally I don't think Michael Tucker or his methods are bad in and of themselves. What isn't good is the way people on both sides of the training style debate talk down to each other and insist that their way is the only way. Both sides do this, and Mr Tucker isn't innocent of this either. That sort of attitude really doesn't help. The reality is that no one training style works for everyone in all situations, which is the very reason why there are so many different training styles. The worst thing about this sort of attitude no matter where it comes from is that it makes people who are experiencing difficulties feel isolated and helpless and pretty stupid too. I myself use what works best with that particular dog but I lean towards the older training style as that suits my temperament much better. There's a lot to be learnt from watching and reading about other training methods and closing your mind to them is just short changing yourself in my opinion. I will say one thing for Mr Tucker some of what he says is helpful and based in commonsense. You're right though he is pretty verbose. :D

Yep exactly even if you NQ at least you know what needs work. In our case it's me. We all have good days and bad days DD, the bad ones can be very disapointing but we learn at lot more from them than the good days. There's always next time. Chin up! If all else fails you can always mention dog fur slippers in the little dears hearing. I know I do... Not that mine cares but it makes me feel better.

Oh dear. I know that feeling, Shoey I'm starting to wonder if we'll ever get a leg and we're only in CCD. Still there's always next time. Right? We ended up having to scratch but I'm still interested in how everyone went.

Congrats LP! Thats just fantastic, I'm glad your boy did so well.

I might enter, I can't make up my mind. I'm glad you posted though I noticed it in the gazette listing but couldn't find anything else in Vic dog about it. Hmm still not sure if I'm up to making a fool of myself in CCD again...

They can't trial until they're 6 months, but in all honesty in my experience most dogs aren't mentally mature enough to trial at that age. Here's a link to the rules for you: www.geocities.com/vicobedience/ankcobedrules.pdf But yes six months is the minimum age.

Kowai, if you get stuck pm me. I have a book of the things and I'm sure I can spare some. And yep the VCA isn't beginner friendly at all.....I'm sure the office staff all rang for the nearest exist when they hear my number on the answering service after all the trouble we had with Koo's papers. :rolleyes:

I was thinking of a dog dyer actually and as I haven't used one since the 90's I honestly can't remember what the temperature was like. Warm not hot I think. If you roughed him up with a good towel you'll shift a fair bit of loose hair that way and they love it. In fact once in desperation many years ago when we had 4 bitches all trying to strip down to their petticoats at once I used an old Hessian chaff bag to rub them dry. They looked absolutely scandalous afterwards but the hair positively clouded out. I've had collies for 25 years now, and I have to say they're very good the shedding it is only an issue when they're actively dropping coat. You're lucky though in my experience the boys aren't so eager to strip off. Perhaps they're shy? I had one girl who would strip right down to her underwear never mind her petticoats she spent all summer looking like she had an advanced case of mange but that was just her. :D There's all sort of volume sprays and things around. If you really want something. I'd find a hydro bathing place somewhere with dryers they are around and take him in and give him a good bath and blow dry. The blow dry will fluff the remaining coat up as well. Then get our that metal comb and comb away. Just be careful with it, you can inadvertently scrap them if you get too vigours.

I have roughs too, all I've ever used is a metal comb, a rake, or a slicker/pin brush (depends what I have on hand). You can always take them and hydro bath them and blow dry which will shift a lot of coat but basically it comes down to elbow grease. I'm not sure about the mars or the furminator to be honest as I've never used one and I'm a bit precious about the top coat. I do find that brushing down to the skin (carefully!) with a comb or slicker gets a lot more out than anyother way. I do it layer by layer back combing as I go. There's a few collie breeders and other collie people on here and I'm sure they'll be much more help than me. Personally I'd like to know what to do with all that hair! I swear I could stuff a bed with what comes out of Koo.

You'd better get out the silver platter for her too with all this gourmet food. Such highly bred ladies need the full silver service you know. Seriously though good luck it's really hard when they have sensitive stomachs and you want to give them something extra. There's always the issue of what. My current girl thinks rainbow trout and fresh salmon are just wonderful...she even knows the word salmon. Not that she gets it very often but when it's on the menu she knows!

Good luck! Nerve racking isn't it? Oh but CCD is so welcome, much easier on the nerves when you've been away for a while. I went back to trialing after 16 years out of it last year. I'd forgotten how much fun it was! My advice is forget all about qualifying scores and enjoy yourself. The scores will come but it may take a few trials for you to settle and get back into the way of things. What matters is that you and your dog enjoy yourselves. Good luck and have fun.

Fingers crossed for pups! I know you've had a few problems. The halal places sell all sorts of meats you wouldn't expect and often sell lamb and beef that have had the fat striped off all ready. So worth a try. Silly idea but what about shell fish? Our old girl went wild for crab and oysters.....not that she got them very often mind you but they're very lean and never upset her stomach.

Try a halal is that how it's spelt? Butcher for goat we have several down here (which is no use to you at a; and all of them sell goat. My old girl had the same problem with Kangaroo not nice with a long haired dog.... What about a lean cut of pork? I know some dogs can't stomach it but if she's in whelp and picky it might be worth a try. Lamb back strap? LOL all very expensive cuts of meat admittedly. Venison would be worth a try I would think.

Dogdude I agree with you for the most part but CCD does have it's good points. I was out of trialling for 16 years, now I'm back with a dog of a different temperament from any I've previously had and she's a challenge, for me at any rate. I also now have health issues I never had as a junior, and those too make trailing hard for me. For us for my dog and I as a team CCD is a great help. FOO isn't an option for me as I don't drive, that makes going to a club difficult too. Though with this girl I think doing an extended time of heeling would not be a good thing. Most of our NQs are because of me, because I wobble in the heeling due to hip pain and because my balance isn't the best now. There's also the issue of having a dog who's soft and relatively low drive as opposed to the strong, onward bound, confident, high drive dogs I've had previously. I do see people pushing and trailing too soon but I also see that for many people CCD is a valuable stepping stone. CCD is about encouragement and so it should be, remember that the CCD ring is just the old encouragement classes given a place in competition. A dog who can do CCD should be able to do novice but the handler and dog combined may find novice a bit daunting. Humans as we know can be greatly affected by nerves, especially this human.

The whole thing with dogs breaking stays has been around forever, back when I was doing in club trials in the 80's it happened and it still does. My girl had this happen in both stays in CCD at the Collie nationals which was her first trial, but people are lovely and I had a couple ask me if I'd like to do an on lead stay to reassure her afterwards. It's just something that happens in trialling. As for the the whole NQ thing we've managed to NQ three times now (something different everytime, still can't complain we improve every time out too)! It's almost embarrassing now but she's very soft and we've had no luck at all. To NQ in the heel work is surprisingly easy, the judges watch those leads like hawks they must be loose. Koori bombed the heeling last time out she was 5 points off qualifying, she lagged not much but just enough. So it happens. It depends on the judge a bit but down here the majority I've found want you to be able to progress and do well in CD and if they're too easy on you that just doesn't happen. It's 1.5m between each dog in the stays, I have an old rule book from 1986 and the distance was the same for all the levels then too. No finishes allowed at all in CCD either. I actually like CCD I think the soft and nervous dogs benefit from being able to work on lead in the ring. It gives them the experience with trialling conditions without the added complication of heel free. I know Koori would have had issues going straight into CD first time out so it's nice to have the option.

I'm so glad she's brightening up! I had a think about this for you and have remembered a few other things we did for our girl. Ours lost the sensation in one hind foot to the first knuckle joint. She found it hard to get up and down off of her bed (she had a bean bag bed she just loved) so I rolled up a blanket and put it under one side of the bed so it was raised and slightly tilted to make it easier for her to get up and down off of it. We also gave her apple cider vinegar and green lipped muscle extract as well. Also due to her lip and tongue being a bit clumsy we had to change the bowl we used. I tried a few things but eventually got a plastic plate and put it in the bottom of the bowl the bottom facing up just to make life easier for her because she'd end up whacking her nose on the side of the dish trying to slurp out every last morsel. Not sure if it's much help but do let us know how she's going. Congrats on the pups too!

We had a collie bitch who had a stroke at 13 it definantly slowed her down. Time helped and massage but she was never quite the same. However she was perfectly happy for the next two and a half years until I had to make the decision to pts. They look akward but with a little help they manage. We raised our girls dish and put it on rubber mat and put a rubber bath mat down for her to stand on. Made sure the water bucket was always full so she didn't have to reach too far. Dogs manage much better than people and they can improve a surprising amount. Here's some pictures for you the first one is a few months after her stroke, the second is 18 months after. She did continue to straighten up by the tiniest degrees over along period of time. It was so slow that I really didn't notice until the vet pointed it out to me. It's very worrying I know but just love her well and be patient. Good luck.