The Spotted Devil

Ha! On my phone - couldn't see it. I meant Facebook whelping group by the way - will have more luck there I suspect. Will ask my Spotted friends.

hm, IMO it depends on what becomes the 'normal' scenario. A dog used to treats (or a pat) if he makes the right choice get used to it...I recall my dog and she comes as she knows she gets the treat, and sometimes she even comes without having here called, sits in perfect heel position and her eyes asking me, 'hey where is my treat, that was a perfect recall...come on..'...so this behaviour becomes the 'normal scenario' after intensive training. If she does a lousy job I can 'add' the scenario where I refuse to give here the reward...IMO a positive punishment once the good behaviour pattern with the reward is established. I think one of the problems is that we humans tend to believe that a new approach has to be 'better' read more successful, more effective....more convenient etc. While this might be justified wrt technical gadgets, IMO it is not always appropriate regarding dog training. Most of us don't own a dog because they have to, but because of the fun factor, hence the chosen trainings approach should reflect the fun factor for dog and owner too. Seems to be easy when getting the dog as a puppy without having to deal with the load of a 'bad history', however, for adopted problem dogs the question about the best trainings approach can be pretty tricky I guess, and I believe it is in the best interest of the dog and the owner of such a problem dog to consider all available options including the not popular once. EDTA the following question for the experts: you are speeding and the police officer gives you a ticket...positive or negative punishment? :D I can't be bothered quoting in parts but: 1. Learning theory is not so simple as just quadrants. It's just one part of the puzzle. Timing, criteria, choice of rewards, distractions, environment, failure, focus...If you don't reinforce a behaviour it will fade. Although if you reward intermittently it's less likely to fade - I prefer to do the latter through criteria, only rewarding 50% or better but ensuring success 7-8 times out of 10 when training. 2. I have trained a lot of dogs. I use the same approach with puppies as I do with adolescents, adults, rescues, puppy farm, behavioural problems...of course I tweak what is emphasised depending on the individual. In actual fact I can take most dogs and have them working with enthusiasm pretty quickly. The skill comes in teaching the owners how to do this. My clients have FUN training their dogs. They get results. The vast majority continue on with the training because they enjoy it and the dogs enjoy it. I teach them about timing and criteria - so even the kids can do it. I actually teach them to be "hard arses" as I like to put it - minimal luring (I don't use it at all for my own dogs), realistic expectations, split behaviours, consistency and timing. Don't reward rubbish but pay big time for trying and improvement. 3. +P (and you can have your opinion about that particular scenario but you are still wrong - you keep talking about what the dog expects or feels. It's not about that. It's about the outcome plain and simple. I know someone who uses e-collars and has a lot of experience and success with them. Twice recently 2 of her dogs have ignored it on its highest setting and gone hunting. It didn't change the outcome (as far as we know) so it doesn't fall into a quadrant). The vast majority of people cannot recognise emotions in dogs by the way. We still have discussions about dogs experiencing guilt when it's fear or appeasement. It's something I teach my clients so they can see the relationship between their dogs having an awesome time AND the owner getting the response they want. I recall a poster of CM advertising his stage show. The body language of the 8 dogs pictured with him made my skin crawl. People think it looks amazing though. Funny, this whole "real world" stuff. Firsf time I took Em on a game shoot she blew them away. Perfect combination of ridiculously high drive, focus and impulse control.

Willem - not quite. Positive punishment ADDS something to DECREASE the likelihood of a behaviour occurring again. If anything it's -P BUT "punishment" doesn't describe the dog's emotion but the outcome. As a scientist I think less about the quadrants and more about the dog's response. I want to foster joy and confidence. I want a dog that offers behaviours and sees failure as just another opportunity to earn a reward. Do I always get it right? Nope. Do my dogs work with enthusiasm and do stuff that I've been told is not possible? Absolutely :D

Can you be any more specific about region LP? Also worth asking on FB Whelping Group.

Positive is not permissive. What if my dog doesn't move through the doorway until she's told she may...

Gruffy strips on the verandah! Loving it! Thanks for posting

That really is an art form blink! Can you please do some progress pics of my favourite scruffer being stripped?

TSD, my bitches always came in at the time the would have done had they not had a litter. So it was usually about 4 or 5 months after whelping Interesting - thanks Airedaler! It wasn't typical of her relatives to do that so just took me a bit by surprise.

Technically if they don't ovulate it isn't a season. But yes I get your drift. Have you prog tested? That would be an option. See a good repro vet. Em is like clockwork...except when I wanted to breed her of course :laugh: This time last year we were prog testing like crazy but nothing. Realised she was early for her usual schedule so waited until Feb when she was due in and put her on Cabergoline. Standard season, 2 natural matings and 4 big pups! She seems to be cycling normally again although she did come in 7 months from her last season rather than 7 months from whelping as we expected her too. I've heard of young bitches with whacky seasons sorting themselves out after a litter too. Good luck!

Remembered with love - Brontë, Dolly and Willow

Great work GB! So pleased to hear she's thriving at home with you all :)

I feed dry predominantly (plus eggs, sardines, yoghurt and all sorts of yummy stuff) and frames 2-3 nights for dinner. Why not feed the slow eating things at night and just give her a small, quick breakfast - raw or dry. Check the poo - you can quickly tell if you're feeding too much or too little bone although it's not an exact science lol

I agree that it's not set in stone - some shelters may be at more like 85%, some more at 95%, and in a small shelter, on an occasional month it might be much worse if they get a couple of dangerous dogs in. But generally, that's what the 90% accounts for - that about 10% give or take of the animals are not going to be suitable for rehoming either due to untreatable medical or behavioural issues. But, if a shelter is trying to argue that 40% of the animals in their care aren't suitable for rehoming and they're killing them, then they're not doing a good job of assessing and/or treating medical and behaviour problems. I agree to an extent but with a note of caution that this aim towards high rehoming rates is driving poor decision making - people at all levels who mean well but don't understand the consequences. This is happening now.

Frozen chicken frames? I also feed frozen lamb necks. Slows even my Springers down. We trim all the fat off prior to freezing.

As far as shelters go I think we need to be very careful about holding them to a % of dogs that must be rehomed. The shelters are damned if they don't but I have seen enough dogs that should NEVER have left the shelter - DA and HA. Sometimes excused because they are SWF but requiring massive amounts of rehab that their owners are just not capable of - no matter how much they think they can. A number of these owners are exhausted with worry and management yet won't medicate or admit it's all too much. However some of them say they'll never get a shelter dog again.

Yes that pretty much sums it up for me too. Lots of demand...not so many suitable homes. Your dudes are a bit more work than the average though! I can see how there's less people willing to put in what they want to get out, I certainly can see that side of it too. Aren't they what bless 'em :laugh: I think the Muppet would love Gus by the way....the bigger they are the harder she plays :D

Yes that pretty much sums it up for me too. Lots of demand...not so many suitable homes.

Ha ha so cuuuuute!

Beautiful and superbly groomed

Actually that's not the case. There are breeders of field bred Labs from Australian, US and UK lines.

Forums/blogs linked have been based overseas. Do you have any Australian sites that reflect what is going on here? If you are so keen then become involved in your club and make it happen. None of us participating in this discussion thus far breed Labs (that I know of) so I imagine that's why there's not a lot of support. If it ain't broke and all that. ETA: The different field lines are interbred at times. Should we split that? And yes I do know of working Gundog breeders who will bring in show lines to fix something.

I thought the OP meant that the puppy school is held outside?

Why not join a Lab club and see if you can make it happen? I don't see the need personally.

I don't think numbers are sufficient to justify it. There are enough politics in the dog world already. The Vic Gundog Club runs both shows and working Gundog trials which appeal to different parts of the membership. So if your assertion that most Labs never retrieve a duck is right who should leave the ANKC and how would that benefit breeders?

The original purpose of the Lab as a working Gundog is far from defunct.