The Spotted Devil

My pup went to heaps of classes - but only ones I was running!

My Dally had "cold water tail" after a pigs ear didn't agree with him. Likely strained a muscle, based on the mess I came home to Poor lad was miserable for a few days and then came good.

Gutsy :laugh:

I would suggest ruling out medical issues first - so a thorough vet check or see a veterinary behaviourist (Robert Holmes or Debbie Calnon). In terms of trainers, I can recommend Amanda Murcutt of Pawsitively Great Pets https://www.facebook.com/pawsitivelygreatpets/

Is that all he's having? Meat and wings?

Spaniel type dogs were thought to have originated from Spain as early as 300AD. Paintings in the 16-17th C show dogs that look like ESS. Within the same litter the larger Springer Spaniels were used to "spring" or "flush" game whilst the smaller litter mates were used to hunt woodcock - ie Cocker Spaniels. Originally used to flush game for hawks, coursing hounds and nets they were particularly successful hunting dogs when the wheel lock firearm was invented. Dalmatians - whilst they didn't originate from Dalmatia they were used to guard the border in the late 18th C.

Wouldn't even think about it containing my Springers if I wasn't around.

My dogs are always inside when we are out - they are super comfortable with it. We are on a very steep block and I just don't trust my Springers as they will go through a fence if they're hunting. My Dally is much more relaxed inside too.

I bought this pen for my working ESS litter - it's brilliant - still use it to contain 8 month old pup occasionally. Doesn't keep the cat out though :laugh: ETA I have compost panels as well that I use against the wall - which makes the pen a lot bigger. I wouldn't use compost panels on their own though - my lot were going over them at a very young age!!!

Indoors I would use Urine Off plus get the little light to see if there are bits that you have missed. You can buy from Vet n Pet Direct online.

That's awesome

My Spaniels are quiet workers and don't tend to be very vocal. You can hear their tails wagging from miles away though :laugh:

The quadrants are confusing as they relate to a very specific response more easily explained in a controlled scientific setting (ie Skinner Box). Reinforcement does not equal reward. It means the behaviour is more likely to occur again. Likewise punishment doesn't mean a whack on the head. It means the behaviour is less likely to occur.

thanks for correcting my layman wording, but isn't operant conditioning we talking here? Operant conditioning is not about the dog being "used to it" either.

Classical conditioning is not about the dog being "used to it".

It probably depends on the extent and type of barking too - my lot will alarm bark or sometimes bark and yip when playing - the latter is quite funny, a bit like the lovely kids next door who play and laugh and sing on the trampoline. The constant alarm or boredom barking is a whole other story.

Quote: it seems that some people have just issues with accepting that 'not giving something that is wanted or needed' is a very powerful form of punishment and widely used in all realms even for torture. Rubbish. Some people just have issues with you using scientific terminology incorrectly. We are talking about effective dog training not animal cruelty. Did you read the part where I said that I train for 7-8 successes out of every 10 attempts? Honestly it's like saying I'm a vegetarian who eats chicken and fish. It's just incorrect terminology.

...that's why it is called 'opinion'...and everyone is entitled to his/her own :) You are indeed. Those who understand the science have taken considerable time and effort trying to explain learning theory. My opinion is that you are not interested in gaining any further knowledge - look up confirmation bias in Wiki.

Podengo - really good article - that says what Huski said pretty much - it's more about how good your training is. From the article Willem - I think you're still a bit confused about the what the quadrants mean - it's easy to do which is why I avoid using the the terminology. The people who claim to be "positive only" are also confused. Hitting a dog - is the adding (+) of an aversive (something the dog doesn't like) in the hope of reducing/stopping an undesirable behaviour. Apply this to a human example - pinched from Susan Garrett... You're driving to dog training class... you might have been speeding. The police officer pulls you over and instead of giving you a fine - the police officer shoots your dog. Do you think you'd risk driving again? With your new dog? What about a child or friend? Is the behaviour the police officer was trying to reduce or stop - what you change? Shooting your dog is only +P if it successfully changes your behaviour. Actually shooting the dog might be -P - taking something away to reduce a behaviour or it could be +P - adding a bullet or an aversive - dead dog. I do really hate the jargon. Now imagine the police officer who hands out rewards big enough that you're happy to be stopped - maybe $10,000 cash? if he catches you driving nicely in way that helps the traffic flow? This is +R - if you drive nicely more often. R stands for "re-inforcement". Would you be happy to see the next police car or would you still have a little startle in your seat? So Re-inforcement is about anything that encourages more of a (desirable) behaviour. Eg pulling on lead and the dog getting closer to where it wants to go (reward) - results in more pulling on lead - self re-inforcing. Hence people with a pulling dog - really need to stop the reward of the dog getting to go where it wants when it's pulling. Three pops on the chain but the dog is still getting where it wants to go when pulling - isn't going to work. I agree with Simply Grand? who said that Cesar has been changing his methods. And with TSD about the body language of dogs in photos with Cesar. I watched one early episode where he "trained" a boxer to be "calm submissive" loose lead walking and the dog at the end looked frightened and stressed. Not relaxed and comfortable. I haven't seen many of the more recent episodes. I hope he's been keeping up with the newer techniques. Tho they are not all that new. The scariest thing about reward based training is it can be a form of "brain washing". The advertising industry use the techniques a lot and successfully. They're all about changing human behaviour and rewarding their product purchases with "feel good". Never mind if the purchases are at all beneficial to the buyer in the long term. The techniques work quite well on humans but does require a lot of creativity. Like how do you get an old school trainer to try something new? To even want to try something new. Some of them don't even want to own a computer or a smart phone. Telling them they're doing it all wrong and this way is better - doesn't work. I learn that the hard way. At the moment at our clubs - a lot of the top competitors who are regularly winning (at agility and obedience) are using the reward based training (reward / no reward and prevent/stop undesirable behaviour), but they're not instructing. The old school instructors won't let them. At the beach this morning - I saw a lot of dogs pulling on lead. My dog did too occasionally - when we were too close to someone handing out treats for nothing - ok treats for barking and jumping. But most of the time she was good loose lead walking. Sometimes the pulling dog people ask how I got that. Most of them think it's something to do with my dog, not training and that their dog will "grow out of it" even if it's 6 yo already or then it's a breed thing. I've even heard labs are impossible to train. WTF? And others just pull on by as if it is hopeless. But I can't tell them different unless they want to hear it. How do you get someone to open their mind to something different? thanks for the head-ups :D ...$10,000 for good driving behaviour would be nice... :laugh: wrt 'brain washing': I think the 'reward' used for training is only a real reward at the start of the training and we use it (take the following with a pinch of salt...) to get some leverage for a sneaky punishment by refusing the reward if the behaviour is not in our favour. E.g. the clicker training: once the synapsis for the dog's response are developed in the dog's brain he has to shift the focus to the originator of the sound...it becomes a reflex. It's not that the dog wants to look at you...it becomes a programmed response. Once the dog is 'addicted' to the whole rewarding game, and the pattern of 'right choice = reward' is established as a reflex the reward is - IMO - not a real reward anymore, but refusing the reward becomes a - IMO - positive punishment. A little bit like someone getting addicted to alcohol (or other drugs): first he / she enjoyed it...then it becomes an addiction and not having the drug is torture. If you would change your trainings approach by refusing any reward (no patting, no treats etc.) I bet the dog would still do the tasks as he is programmed to do so, but after a while he would start to behave like a junkie on coldturkey. Actually you're just confusing classical conditioning with operant conditioning. Pavlov is always on your shoulder. By the way, clarifying your statements with "IMO" does not make you right.

The terms get all mixed up in my head! I am much better at just remembering the gist and the why XD Like standing at the door and not going anywhere until pup sits or drops calmly then reward by allowing out but no commands makes for a life habit XD When the square happens I get confused...then people bring in the acronyms and I go sit in my corner and puzzle the gist out ;) but maybe once I finish building up my base habits like the dogs I can start bringing in the words and queues for me! :D Building up that relationship so the dog knows you're just chatting is nice...but to be more careful in actual training. Back to my corner, just wanted to see if I was recognising the methods right ;) But you're exactly spot on! Once you get the whole building relationship and rewarding responses you don't need to argue about quadrants! I don't even touch on it for 99% of clients as they don't need it.

And I'll add that in some situations I NEVER cue a sit - dogs want to come in, go out, get out of the car, want a leash on, go for a walk, want dinner, want to go play, run and swim, want to run agility, want to do retrieving - offer me a sit and I'll give you what you want!

Her hearing is amazing so no way I could do it without her knowing. Plus the Cavs all need snooding and crating and in the time I do this she's yelling her head off. The only way to stop her is to spray her with the water spray but the moment I put it down shes off again. I hear you! Had a couple of Lappies in my class and wow do they like the sound of their own voice :laugh: Away from dinner time can I suggest you try a crating exercise whereby you throw a sheet over the crate if she makes a noise and remove the sheet, wait, then drop treats through the crate when she's quiet. Be sure not to chain a bark, sheet on, sheet off, treat scenario. You might need to pretend to make dinner to get her worked up - slow steps. I do this with my dogs as they go BONKERS when I'm training another dog otherwise. Many dogs will bark through a citronella collar if they are highly aroused. At dinner time could you put her outside with a pre-prepared meal whilst you train an appropriate behaviour? Pre-prepare the meal the night before.

No and yes. Does anyone have links to people professing to train effectively in that no limits way? Are they REALLY doing or just saying they are because they conveniently don't consider things like using a collar and lead, shutting doors, teaching meal time manners etc as outside the "positive only" sphere? ETA sorry, I shouldn't assume, does anyone here train without doing anything to inhibit undesirable behaviours, only rewarding desirable ones? And if so, what the results been? I do know of trainers that use a lot of luring and don't train for failure like I do - my opinion is that it does take longer because the dog can't focus on what they are doing as all they see is the treat. At the same time I know of plenty of trainers (who use varying methods - positive or otherwise) who "nag" the dogs constantly - repeated commands drive me nuts. I like to put the onus on the dog to make good choices. If I say "watch" to my retrieving dogs that means...sit straight at heel, look forward, watch the mark and remain rock steady until I tell you to retrieve it or leave it. Obviously I train it in stages but it's mostly left to the dog to figure out. Do this? Get this!

I certainly don't spend hours training and shaping behaviours - my dogs are lucky to get 10 min a day apart from organised classes or workshops or days like today where they spent about 20 min training and 4 hours running and swimming - I train for 3 distinct sports, work long hours and am still studying. Most of my "manners" training is done as part of everyday life.

Love it and so so true - this argument could and does go around in circles forever....