The Spotted Devil

I've got Ziggy on Sentinel Spectrum and have never seen a flea nor evidence of one :D

there weren't any hobbles or beatings, no screaming horses, no blood or sweat..... you disagree that's fine. Maybe you should go to Monty roberts website... I believe he has one... I can find you the link or you can google it. At the risk of repeating myself, a punishment does NOT necessarily entail what you describe... Positive reinforcement - something added to increase the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated...e.g. "good dog!" or a treat or a tug game. Negative reinforcement - something is removed to increase the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated....e.g leg or hand aids in horses or release the tension on the dog's leash. Positive punishment - something is added to decrease the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated....e.g. growling at the dog when it jumps up. Negative punishment - something is removed to decrease the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated...e.g. ignore a dog when it jumps up.

ask monty roberts about that, actually ask my mate who has been breaking horses in for years.... Tess did you really attend a seminar? you must have been asleep. I believe the lady in question is as we speak at Yellowstone where she has spent many many days, weeks and months observing the wolf packs. Monty roberts breaks a horse with no punishment in 20 minutes. There was no 24 hour constant... he let the horse return to the herd, it went and then returned to him 24 hours later of its own free will. As you were quoting my post there, Rusky, I will respond. Applying the very slightest pressure to a horse's mouth or head using a bit or a bitless bridle is negative reinforcement - applied correctly the pressure is removed as soon as the horse responds and is a fabulous training aid. This is backed up by positive reinforcement (vocal or physical). It is very much the same with the application of the legs to ask a horse to move forward/backward or change direction. It is not the use of negative reinforcement, per se, but the timing and the force of the pressure. The problem with both Monty Roberts and Pat Pirelli (I'm not denying that they can work with horses, mind you!) is that they fail to correctly differentiate between positive and negative reinforcement/punishment. This can lead to much confusion when discussing learning theory - here are my definitions as I understand them. I honestly believe much of this debate of positive vs negative training would be negated if understanding was reached on this.... Positive reinforcement - something added to increase the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated...e.g. "good dog!" or a treat or a tug game. Negative reinforcement - something is removed to increase the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated....e.g leg or hand aids in horses or release the tension on the dog's leash. Positive punishment - something is added to decrease the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated....e.g. growling at the dog when it jumps up. Negative punishment - something is removed to decrease the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated...e.g. ignore a dog when it jumps up. I've used all those methods in training my pup (and other dogs), but I follow up all punishments with positive reinforcement when the appropriate behaviour is displayed. I hope what I've written makes sense after 2 glasses of red Sometimes I just feel frustrated that many of us seem to be talking about the same thing but just fail to define it in the same way!

Hi Erny Interesting question you raise - sorry to go OT but I think much of the problem with the word 'dominance' stems from a lack of education on the part of owners....I only have to direct you to this recent thread - the number of average people/dog owners who think that 'dominance' does require alpha rolls is astounding Take Caesar Milan for a moment...nothing like a TV show to popularise methods with the average owner! I tend to refer to my mad Dally as being persistent, bold, intense or pushy - I've chatted with a lot of dog owners as we walk down the street...I've been given all sorts of terrifying advice about how I should train him and even had the owner of a GSD puppy suggest that I alpha roll Zig, like he was taught to do by other GSD people Funny thing is I have never seen one other person in my local area training their dog as they go for a walk - they just put contraptions on them (like a body harness or halti) to control them or wrestle them to the ground if it's a SWF going nuts. Yep, I growl at Zig when he's being an absolute git but he tends to think that corrections provide attention (therefore positive reinforcement). For him, the best thing I can do is remove him from his social world and put him in his crate As a scientist, although dominance is certainly acknowledged, it is a very fluid (and complex!) construct in the animal world. It's not something that can be objectively tested - which is why we prefer to look at non-associative learning (habituation, sensitisation, desensitisation) and associative learning (classical conditioning and operant learning).....if a scientist can not objectively manipulate and measure something then we cannot gain reliable outcomes and results. While all the studies show that positive reinforcement (particularly when intermittent) results in an extended memory of the exercise and is harder to extinguish, animal welfare scientists do understand that negative reinforcement etc. is required.....you can't train a horse safely, for example, without it. Nor can you move livestock without it. What we are trying to get across (and perhaps this is where the whole argument with the RSPCA has gone awry due to a lack of understanding/explanation on their part - trust me....that's not the only aspect of animal welfare they don't get!!!!!) is that the negative reinforcement required is a LOT less than we all previously understood. As an example, the amount of pressure from the hands to remain in neutral contact with the bit in a horse's mouth is 200g. To stop the horse requires 300g. 600g can result in learned helplessness. Negative reinforcement is a really important part of training but it must be applied correctly - 90% of jockeys do not relent with the whip when the horses do what they are asked and run faster. Similarly a poorly timed food treat for a dog will reinforce the inappropriate behaviour. I actually find it very enjoyable to observe the parallels between the two theories....my show trainer (who is fantastic and what I would call a balanced trainer) will talk about what the dogs are doing in terms of dominance/leadership and I can translate that all to operant learning/classical conditioning. As I've said before, I don't think my view negates the success of trainers such as yourself. Personally, I think the focus for the average owner needs to be on consistency. An animal that receives inconsistent (random mixture of positive/negative) treatment will display a similar stress response one that consistently receives negative treatment. The average owner *thinks* they are giving their dog a correction and the dog just doesn't perceive it that way....thus the trauma for both parties begins. For what it's worth ETA: Spelling :rolleyes:

But he looks so sweet and innocent ;) Swap you for a week

Personally I just use 'quick, quick' for both - but because I know Zig's routine pretty well now, if he hasn't done poos in the morning (especially if it's cold and wet outside ) then I'll just send him away from the back door again telling him "and the rest!"......and he'll dutifully go and poo like a good boy ;)

Just had a very brief look at the link, LL - it looks pretty good....very similar to the approach I've used with my mad pup

My mad Dally is a pretty pushy OTT young dog so I didn't even touch tug-o-war in his first 12 months. Instead I just focussed on fetch games as a reward for sitting, dropping, standing, staying etc etc. I've introduced tug games now but they are very controlled - Zig tugs on command, gives it to me when I ask and sometimes is allowed to win. When he brings me the tug toy I hold it very loosely, ask him to "give" - if he does immediately I reward him with either a tug game or a retrieve. If he doesn't I just turn away and ignore him - it works a treat Now that I have a controlled but fun response from him, I am beginning to use it as a reward for working well in combination with clicker training.

BC has the right idea I think. My young Dally wants to play with the cats ....he's even started dropping toys at their feet which is rather sweet but the girls are not impressed! Lilly belts him over the nose and he just wags his silly tail and tries to bop her back. I've taught Zig a 'leave' command and have a water spray for emergencies. By far the best solution is to very quietly place Zig in his soft crate if he does not respond when I ask him to 'leave' the cats alone. Removing Ziggy from his social world is the worst punishment possible And I must say, the cats stir the sh!t out of him but he needs to learn restrain and self-control. It's always worse coming up to dinner time too.....everyone gets a little restless!

Oooh I was on Tramal - never again....I was off my face and the lows were worse than the highs Poor girl. Not sure if it helps but the very good chiro who treated my pup (very gentle massage/manipulation) has a dog with the most terrible hips and she helps manage it by using massage/manipulation to take the strain off the rest of her body - she said it's done wonders for the dog's ability to get around and improved her quality of life. Good luck!

She's still a baby I found the toughest part of toilet training a puppy is to understand when they fully "get" it. We might think they have but they often don't. This includes them knowing when and where they need to go, being able to control their bladder and being able to signal you that they need to go. The latter can be difficult with some....my boy just gets a little restless and perhaps whines very gently. That's enough warning for me but it goes completely over OH's head There's no point making her stay outside for 20 minutes if she doesn't fully "get" it! I make OH take Zig out every 2-3 hours simply because otherwise he will completely miss Zig's signals. The best thing to do IMO is to teach a command - I use "quick, quick!" - don't let your young dog practice getting it wrong. Set her up to succeed! Take her outside to toilet more often than you think she needs, stay with her (do NOT just leave her outside), give her your command when she does toilet and praise the daylights out of her She'll soon get the idea - when she has toileted you can even have a special tug or fetch game with her as a reward! Make it fun and not a chore and you'll both relax

The parvo bug is so bloomin' tough - damn awful thing! I know all about being paranoid - I was a little OTT with Zig but it was worth it. I carried him EVERYWHERE and boy did I get some pretty good arm muscles I had him sit on my lap when we went out for coffee - I'm surprised the little rascal knew how to walk when I finally let him use his own legs. He got so much exposure this way, though, and is really well socialised I've heard that some breeders don't vaccinate their puppies against parvo because they have don't think it's around ;)

Is there any reason why you don't allow them to pee when they're on walks? Unless I'm doing a bit of heeling practice I allow my dogs to sniff and pee as much as they like as long as they do it on a loose lead and don't attempt to pull to reach something. It all adds to the pleasure of their walk, it would be no fun for my dogs and subsequently no fun for me if all we did was march up and down the streets with no stops allowed. Just answering for my own reasons here.....for some area of the walk pup is allowed to sniff and pee to his heart's content (on a loose lead as you say)...especially when we walk through the park or the lane-way....however sometimes we walk down the local shopping strip and a lot of the shops have displays (clothes, gifts) on the footpath or chairs/tables - and I also don't think it's fair on home owners to let Zig lift his leg on their letter box or flower beds

Zig still does lift his leg so I haven't trained him NOT to as such....it's just that when it is inconvenient for me he is not allowed to. As I said in my earlier post I just ask him to walk on with me and, as a result of being very consistent with the signals and subsequent praise, he does so!

My Dally boy LOVES to lift his leg and he's only just gone 12 months. I have rules for where and when...obviously not in the house, never, ever when he is "working" in the show ring (and later on in obedience/agility) and not when we are walking on the footpath. He can do what he wants on his free run at the beach and at certain points during his walk (e.g. at the park or in the lane way) when I say "OK" - he can do what he wants as long as doesn't forget that I'm at the other end of the lead It's been quite hard work because Zig seems to be very driven to mark his territory - I've just been very vigilant on our walks and read his pre-leg lifting body language - then I just ask him to walk on. It's a slow process but we're getting there

How awful and sad Has the vet actually done a test for parvo? There are in-house diagnostic tests available - perhaps it would at least give you an idea....if it IS parvo, it stays in the environment for ages so it wouldn't be surprising that your other pup got sick. I really hope your sick pup recovers

Just remember it's not all about tiring her out physically (although that does help) - it's the mental stimulation that's often neglected! You must be consistent AND persistent!

CavNrott put it beautifully IMO My Dally pup has just turned one....and I would not leave him unsupervised in the house or (very small) yard for more than 5 minutes - and trust me, I've had stuff destroyed in less time than that Luckily my contact hours with Uni are low and he is rarely left alone for more than 4 hours. Approximately every 2nd day Zig has a 20-30 minute free run at the beach where we practice his recall (up to 6-8 times) - lots of praise and the occasional treat. On the other days he has a brief walk to the shops that involves some free sniffing and leg lifting in the park and other controlled walking near the shops. Most days he has a couple of short training sessions. Plus show training one night a week and a few outings on weekends (shows, cafes etc). Training at home - playing fetch is all very well but make puppy think about what she is doing - if she loves to fetch make her WORK for it....in fact, make her WORK for everything!!!! Zig has to do either a sit stay, drop stay or stand stay to have the toy thrown for him (mix up the toys - hide some and rotate regularly to keep up the novelty factor). Now I've started to introduce a few different exercises such as stand-drop-sit then celebrate by throwing the toy OR having a gentle tug game. The tug game itself is a training session - he has to tug and give the tug toy on command (then it is thrown for him to fetch as a reward). Do a search on clicker training too - great fun for owner and dog....may take a bit of practice but it's very helpful for channeling that mad energy into sensible behaviour. Ziggy is a very active and pushy pup and I have put in so much work with him - once he's had enough play time he will settle on his inside bed while I study - that has taken a lot of practice in itself!!! If I can't supervise him he is in his crate - even for 20 minutes so I can wash the dishes for example (he's not allowed in the kitchen so I can't watch him). This means he gets loads of praise for playing nicely with his toys and I can give him the appropriate "leave" command if he puts his paws or mouth in the wrong place every single time he does it - it really is all about consistency. And, I'm afraid, there is no magic solution for "stealing" shoes etc - you MUST put it out of reach of puppy (which means closing a lot of doors in our house) OR supervise 100% of the time. I don't know what I would have done without a crate or 2 in the house - brilliant!!!!

Although this applies to having a dog as a companion, if you want to trial/show I really think you have to train your pup to trust you - by being predictable in terms of corrections and rewards, by setting your pup up to succeed and by protecting your pup when necessary. Just as an example, I take my year old Dal to the bay for a free run several times a week...usually early in the morning when it is quiet. He is very sociable with other dogs and can be a little over exuberant but I have taught him to "steady" as he approaches rather than galloping up rudely. He is very good with small dogs and old dogs too......his tail nearly falls off he wags it so hard Yesterday a dog had a go at him (both were off leash) - I could see it coming in the dog's body language and tried to avoid the dog but to no avail. The first thing Ziggy did was look to me for guidance - and I immediately told him to "come" - it took him a couple of attempts as the dog would not let him pass but Zig got the biggest cuddle when he came back. Then a small terrier type dog in the same walking group decided to follow his mate's example and came tearing after us to have another go at Zig. Luckily I was close enough and I stood between Zig and the oncoming dog, telling it in no uncertain terms to bugger off. The little ratbag continued to bark and growl so I growled back - dog took off back to its owners and Ziggy was delighted! Then there's the water - it has been too cold to swim for a while so Zig hadn't waded in the water since he was quite young. When I asked him to follow me into the water a few weeks back, you could see he was apprehensive but trusted me enough to have a splash. Then it only took a few enthusiastic sessions of "Good Boy!" before he now plunges in voluntarily to cool off (although he can't quite see the point of swimming yet). Sorry for the ramble but I think it's an important aspect that gets forgotten sometimes.

I've been doing a lot of 'informal' obedience training with Zig at home....now it's really time to begin to put it all together! He's just turned one and is really beginning to mature mentally (no, really! )......I'd like to trial him in 2008 in CCD....been years since I've been in the ring I can't wait until we start agility training together....I know he's able to do light work now but I prefer not to risk his physical development and wait until he's 18 months old.

This is what I focussed on with my pup..... 1. People, people and more people - adults, kids, teens....with every look imaginable - just stand outside a supermarket with puppy in your arms 2. Friendly, well socialised puppies/dogs under control - my old dog was attacked as a puppy so I was extremely careful about this 3. Everyday items e.g. broom, vacuum cleaner, umbrella - I know some people think it's cute when puppy attacks/plays with the broom but it drives me nuts! 4. Traveling in the car.....just a minute or 2 to the corner shops to start with and we progressed from there. 5. Thunderstorms - I took Zig for a play out in a thunderstorm and it worked a treat....no problems with thunder or fireworks since I'm sure there were lots of other things but they are the main ones that spring to mind....I'm really, really happy with my pup (he's now just gone one year) - very little phases him and even then it only takes a look from me and he's fine

When my 8 week old pup arrived home, he was already trained to toilet on newspaper.....so I had a nice cosy crate (door off) in the laundry for him....bowl of water, puppy kong with a few biscuits for chomping on, lots of newspaper near his crate, a very soft lamp to help him find his way and a radio to keep him company. It worked a treat and I never had to get up in the night for him! He only toileted overnight 4-5 times over 10 days and never did again. After the first few times I reduced the spread of newspaper to ensure he wasn't just toileting anywhere. It may not work for everyone but it worked brilliantly for us Enjoy your puppy!!!

My Dal has just turned one and simply desperately wants to play with the cats....he play bows and yips and drops toys at their feet .......I have taught him a firm "leave" command and he is old enough to know the consequences of not obeying it.....without a word he gets gently placed into his soft crate for 5 or 10 minutes.....removing him from his social world is the worst punishment imaginable and he always comes out very quietly The cats are now doing really well....Lilly has been stirring him for some time but Miss Bronte has finally realised that he is not dangerous, just a complete pain in the @r$e

If he has had negative experiences associated with eating, would it be worth experimenting with the type of dish he eats from as well? Just a thought

Oh Horus I'm so very, very sorry I just happened to see the title and could not believe it could be your Cleo. You did so much for her, gave her a home when no-one else could and now have been faced with the toughest of all decisions. Words fail me. Run free Cleo and find your peace - you were a lucky girl to be so much loved. You have my firm support on this Bryan - I know how much you loved Cleo and it must have been heartbreaking for you Sending healing vibes to you and to Ellie.