The Spotted Devil

Sounds like TOT ..... except instead of the meal at the end, it's the "meet and greet". Or simply positive reinforcement

Just from my limited work experience with Guide Dogs Vic - the dogs in training at the centre (once they return from puppy raising at 12-18 months) are always kennelled in pairs and spend much of the day in a group of 4-6. They play with each other, play with toys, love going for walks/runs and will take as many cuddles as you give them. As soon as the harness goes on - different dog - unbelievable change - no mad Lab puppy behaviour but a suddenly mature dog beyond it's years. I've tried to do the same thing with Zig - if we're "working" (has to be done at the off-leash park), focus is on me, tail wagging, alert and ready for action. When he is released one of his rewards is to tear around like a mad Dally, p!ssing on everything and saying hello to the dog he was just required to ignore completely during a recall or heel work. Best of both worlds and it's a good way for me to monitor how good his focus is. He is naturally fairly aloof with people and really is only keen to meet them so as he can see how much he can get away with

Oh that's fantastic Funny buggers aren't they? Zig's informal recall at the park improved out of sight when I started holding out my left or right arm for agility practice. Dunno about running through my legs though....I reckon he'd knock me clean onto my @r$e :rolleyes:

Thanks so much Ptolomy ETA: The 2 food game has been a godsend for us - once Zig has a reward he often used to think it was "game over" and decide to bolt off for a quick leg lifting session but the 2 food game has him trying to work out how to get that next reward as quickly as possible!

Thanks ness - I have a little time on my hands at the moment so there's no excuse not to go and buy a hoop - anything that involves "running" is a favourite with Zig. Stand half a metre from him and ask him to find "heel" and you get a pretty enthusiastic response. Stand 20 metres from him for the same exercise and he nearly jumps out of his skin with excitement

Great thread Excuse me for a quick hijack but is there anything I can do to prepare for scent discrimination as I'm still working on Zig's retrieve......I'm using different toys at the moment and he will only hold for a few seconds (clicker training and he's having a ball....just doesn't quite get it yet :rolleyes: ). I'm doing a few other fun things like "directed eating" as I like to call it but he just gets bored so quickly so I am trying to introduce a few new ideas. Note to self.....need to buy hoop for sendaway! ETA: Sorry, just had a look at the website....we play the 'find it' game with a squeaky toy except I hide him in the hallway - been playing this one since he was a puppy and he goes completely nuts for it.

The problem with these discussions IMO is that they fall apart because no two people are talking about the same thing - particularly in terms of the definitions of positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment and negative punishment. A quick 'Google' comes up with a nice description: The provision of food or praise or petting when a behaviour is performed is positive reinforcement. When the pressure of a headcollar is released when the dog behaves appropriately it is negative reinforcement i.e. the dog stops pulling to avoid the pressure of the headcollar. Similarly, the very gentle pressure and release of a horse rider's legs is negative reinforcement. Negative does not equal 'bad'. It's about application and giving the lightest possible signal.

Tough question to sum up in one post If I look at the journey I've had with Zig over the past 2 years, probably the one thing that stands out has been finding out what motivates him (this has changed, waxed and waned with age) and then have him working with a bright confidence in me and himself. He's nothing like my old ACD who would just work and work until she dropped. He's smart, gets bored easily and I have to think and be one step ahead of him all the time. I have encouraged him since a puppy to be calm and well-behaved inside the house - ultimately I wanted a dog that could switch on/switch off and had moments of madness but was a pleasure to live with. A dog that I would want to take to training. Although we are not trialling yet, I think I can tick all those boxes (especially the madness ). Zig has been a challenge, but that's what I wanted When I give advice to people, I try not to say DO this but rather this worked for ME and my dog, both of which are of a certain temperament. Some things work for some people and some things work for some dogs and, although often the theory is the same, the way it is expressed is different. Personally I'm not into 'leadership' but have no problem with others expressing it this way if it works for them. My big message is to be consistent and be persistent. Work out if what you are doing is truly rewarding or aversive. Timing is everything. Success promotes success. One thing my ACD, Dolly, and Ziggy have in common......they are great dogs as long as you learn to "channel the madness"

Wait until there's a thunderstorm and you dance with your pup up and down the street so he thinks loud noises are FUN! Not only will your pup think you're mad as a hatter but so will your neighbours Well done on your progress - keep going and don't give up

Nice find Shoey Well, I didn't end up trialling this year but I think that has been more about my raising the bar when I had a glimpse of what Zig was really capable of - in hindsight I'm really glad I didn't! We have started agility training but as soon as Uni finished the club went on Christmas break so I'll have to be patient TSD: Goals for '08 (12/12/07)

Dear Santa I think I will need a new Dalmatian. Mine seems to be broken. His recall is brilliant, his heel work is coming along nicely, he loves switching between both styles of 'finish', he thinks distance work is a hoot, his focus can be sensational and he's just a pleasure to work and live with Please, Santa, don't take away his madness, ratbag moments and frustrating ways as that is what makes him such a joy....no matter how many times I think to myself....."why you little %$@#%!!!" Seriously, with some more focus work over the Summer, I hope young Zig is ready to trial in CCD in the New Year and agility before too long. Training wise, I'd like to progress from "hold" meaning "pick up toy, hold for 3 seconds, then fling across room with as much force as possible" to "hold toy" P.S. I still want another Dalmatian

When my Dally was a pup, for the first week outside = toilet NOT playing - I confined him to a relatively small, uninteresting area and kept it very business like so he could distinguish as quickly as possible what I wanted him to do. It worked very well for us and then I could progress to allowing him access to the yard for a play as a reward AFTER toileting. Hope that helps

Don't think you'll miss The Spotted Devil himself but that's a great idea :rolleyes:

I think there has been some good advice given. If it helps at all, I have a Dalmatian who was an extremely difficult puppy and teenager - full of energy, super intelligent and very, very determined to get his own way - I think if he had gone to an "average" household he would have been sent back to the breeder......several times However, I trained him every single day, played lots of controlled games (i.e. tug and release, retrieve in response to commands - not just endless fetching) and, whilst being careful of growing joints, provided sufficient exercise and stimulation with controlled walks and off leash runs on the beach (early in the mornings to avoid too many dogs). When I was home, he was with me. Always. This allowed me to closely supervise, praise, correct and distract as appropriate. When I was out he was confined to an open crate in the laundry. Fortunately I was home a lot as I was studying. Zig has just turned 2 and is the most delightful dog I could imagine living with. Every weekday we either go to the park for some serious obedience training (I plan to start trialling him next year) before he is given a free run or we go to the beach for an hour where I practice recalls, stays and focus amongst all his madness. On the weekend we either go to a club for agility training or a show or he just has a lovely on lead walk. At night he is fed either 3-4 cups of dry food or a chicken frame - all of this must be earned via training. During the day he happily curls up in his bed whilst I study and at night he is desperate to go to his crate in the laundry to get some more sleep. Don't get me wrong - he's still nuts and has his moments but channelling all that madness and energy into something constructive has done wonders for him. All the best!

What everyone else said :rolleyes: My Dally is 2 and still looking a bit gangly - he is from late maturing lines and I think another 12 months of filling out should do it Wouldn't have it any other way either!

Steve - I think the other problem is that any dog trained in this manner would then be required to be muzzled and housed as a 'dangerous dog' under the legislation. Agree with your comment:

Awesome Just as long as you don't laugh at ours

Make sure pup is tired but calm when you put him to bed. I would always have a good play session with Zig before taking him outside to toilet then sitting quietly for about 10 minutes on the floor with him having some nice, quiet cuddle time. Before long......one yawn! two yawns! three yawns! Three strikes and you're out and off to bed with a Kong full of biscuits for company - the dog, I mean! Then pour yourself a glass of wine so you can ignore him doing his own whining Zig sleeps in an open crate in the laundry - perfect set up for our situation but work out what suits you best. He just loves it Enjoy your puppy

Kirsten, I am so very sorry for your pain and loss Please, you mustn't blame yourself. You are human, you did the very best you could and you cannot control what others do The breeder of my girls wrote to me a few months ago with a similar story - she vetted the potential owner thoroughly, did the 'inside only' kitten thing....only to receive an email a few months later saying the kitten was bored and wanted to go out and was hit by a car and could she have another one? :p And my breeder MUST be able to judge people pretty well, because she sold ME one of her kittens and entrusted that kitten's mother to me when she was retired to be spoilt for the rest of her days Hugs to you Kirsten - if you want to catch up for a coffee or a walk or a G&T - just give me a call :cool: Run free Millie with the butterflies in the sun - ask for Willow at the bridge - she will guide you

Another from Vic here - sounds like a lot of fun!

Thanks Jessca - it's probably the instructors and the way they train the handlers that is of most interest to me, not only the Schutzhund, so the videos are probably not ideal. It's the handler on the end of the lead that makes or breaks the dog, which is why I was so unimpressed with the 'underground' version I guess.

I've seen working RAAF dogs give a demonstration in East Timor (it was pissing with rain and we were bored :D ) - fortunately I had a video camera I've also seen what I imagine would count as 'underground' bite training work - it was interesting to observe but certainly didn't do much for the reputation of professionals. I would be very interested in seeing a true Schutzhund training session And I DO work in animal welfare, so don't paint us all with the same brush please

That's what I thought Wonder if there is any way to get formal confirmation of that - might warrant an email to the drug company.

Tell me about it Pers :D I should add, that just for fun last night, I did a recall with Ziggy straight through some dog biscuits scattered on the floor - lovely focus and presentation to front and didn't even look sideways at the food (which was his dinner). He was extremely chuffed when I released him to eat it though! I suppose that's how I like to train with food ETA: Well said Tess32!

For me, it depends on the dog - my old ACD worked for just a look and a pat - I never used food (trained to CDX). My current Dally - it's very difficult to train him and maintain any form of focus without high value food rewards as a starting point. He is not particularly motivated by pats, toys or anything else. I also use 'life rewards' as a jackpot - a top session of heel work and he is allowed to run free and piss on everything in sight