The Spotted Devil

Seeing as my Dalmatian just demolished yet another Reidel wine glass (and my last few sips of red) with his madly wagging Spotted tail the next dog might be about be just around the corner

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Cool - I saw that on the way home a few days ago. Might take a look!

Despite Ziggy initially mistaking the faux fur collar for a tug toy (yep, seriously) we both love his new winter coat! It is seriously toasty warm and easy to slip on and off

Great work! Some dogs don't like being crowded so you might need to build lots of value for a tight front. Try going back a step. Sit on the ground with your legs apart and get your dog to fly in fast and collect the treat at your chest - just make it like a silly game!

Understandable - which is why I clarified that I train for competition. Which is also why I like to see dogs in action before I put much stead in titles! Now, my Springer's close relatives are valued for the huge value they have for scenting/hunting and 'work' in the real world. Teach them what you want and they will do it all darn day! The working Labs are the same. But most of us have pet dogs who we enjoy competing with - many of whom aren't "ideal" for the chosen sport but enjoy it nonetheless. Sorry for the continual OTs but I have enjoyed my train trip home :D

Sometimes that's also a trap of not realising what you're rewarding. I've noticed my dogs have Eureka! moments when teaching something new - they'll anticipate or throw in another behaviour - almost trying too hard. When I withhold the reward it's like "duh! Now I get it" and then I can work on improving performance, increasing distractions etc. Also, dogs tend to be crap at generalizing. Big trap!!! Another also! Every dog sport is stylised nowadays, even field trials and retrieving. I mean, honestly, what hunter would give a crap which order the game was picked up in or whether the dog cheats the water. Admittedly being steady to the shot is pretty desirable!!! ETA: sorry again - in response to itsadogslife

Damn - missed all the replies - sorry, on my phone! Keisha - ok, so maybe you could take the retrieve out of the picture and try the neat front. It might give you both something to work with and that is the end behaviour you want, which is the strength of back chaining. It's so hard to explain over the interwebz! I don't mind what the dogs find rewarding as long as it is of my choosing. You can't help but transfer value across different rewards - chaining behaviours does that.

Fair enough, I agree. But I am also inclined to think that the point of teaching anything is to bring the dog to the point of understanding whereby the behavior becomes intrinsically reinforcing. The constant emphasis on extrinsically rewarding the dog seems to me at least, to be getting in the way of the dog's understanding. I mean if you saw someone who was constantly correcting their dog, you would rightly say to them that their dog does not understand. The need to constantly be reinforcing the dog is a least to my eyes an indication the the dog does not understand the value of what is being taught. Rather the dog is simply working for the value of the extrinsic reward. And yet whenever the behavior in question starts to drop off the advice always seems to be increase the extrinsic reward. There is a difference between understanding and motivation. And building value into an exercise depends on the level of precision you want too. Me wanting a perfectly straight sit, dog looking me in the eye, not mouthing the retrieve item and not dropping the article even if I place my hands on it is a lot different to a dog dropping a ball at your feet. As I commented recently in the case of the latter who's shaping who? :laugh: The thing is, whether we are training or not the dog is ALWAYS learning. Regarding using rewards - I think Bob Bailey put it beautifully when he said "dog training is simple but not easy". You see I talked about the delivery of the reward and there are so many more subtleties I find difficult to pin down. Like the dogs who pick up your frustration and shut down. Or the times we inadvertently reward the undesired behaviour. Not everyone has good timing (let alone great!) The trainers who use positive reinforcement that I admire the most have very stringent criteria and an innate understanding about when to up the ante. Real hard @r$es in fact!

I am sorry in advance if I give offense, I'm really not meaning to, but I find the above to be rather confusing. A dog that loves retrieving is not the sort of dog that needs constant reward. If your dog is losing interest in retrieving once the reward rate starts to drop then I can't see how it is the retrieving that he loves. My own dog, a Kelpie to whom I have only informally trained the retrieve, would literally run himself into the ground before he stopped retrieving the ball, or any other object I threw. I have never rewarded this behavior at all - other than to throw the ball. This is not meant as a brag on my training skills or method - I actually did very little in the way of teaching the retrieve - it is simply a observation on the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic reward. For my own dog retrieving is intrinsically rewarding hence there is no need to reward the behavior other than throwing the ball. A dog that needs a constant rate of extrinsic reward in order maintain its behavior is not a dog that I would say "loves" what he is doing. I see what you are saying - I think it is about which PART of the retrieve the dog finds rewarding. For us lucky ones, it's the going out to the retrieve that is intrinsically rewarding. They bring it back to us because they are rewarded by us throwing it again etc etc. With dogs like my Dally and Wuffles' Ava, the backchaining and shaping means that bringing it back is incredibly rewarding. Thus they go and get it! You can get to the point where they transfer so much value to the retrieve (or tug or agility etc) that it does become self-perpetuating and self-rewarding over time. But if you stop rewarding too early or don't mix up the rewards it can lead to extinction like any other behaviour. I do like to shape a mad retriever to retrieve simply because it's another tool I can use when I'm teaching more advanced retrieves. My Springer doesn't get sick of retrieving but there's a lot of other behaviours I want surrounding that so I do use other rewards. Sorry I also meant to say that when you've had a dog that finds the idea of tugging or retrieving (or doing ANYTHING for that matter!) pretty aversive you can get a little carried away with emotive descriptions - I know I do anyway :laugh:

Sorry - more random thoughts! Does your dog know a really tight "front" position? And are you teaching it standing up or sitting down?

I like the idea of the nose touch. In terms of articles - you can use lots of things at once including pens and household items but I wouldn't use the actual item you want to retrieve (i.e. dumbbell) until you've got the behaviour you want - or at least getting it really strong and valuable. The other thing that has worked for me is incorporating the 2 food game into training. I did it last night with Em when I was nutting out her weaves - just made the session FUN - even though I felt really relaxed and my body language and voice reflected that I could see she was unsure and a good sprint every now and again really livened her up and gave her confidence. I had to fast track Zig's retrieve the last few weeks (neglected for agility) and he loved running for the food also although I used the Ready Treat. The change in attitude really came down to reward delivery.

The field-bred ones can be pretty intense - don't let that cute little face deceive you! Although the boys seem to me to be more laid back than the girls. I remember Em being incredibly intense as a puppy (still with a great off switch) whereas Mr B is all "Aw, can I have a cuddle first?"

*gremlins*

kiesha09 - ok, another idea, presuming you've patterned and rewarded the dog into repeating the "wrong" behaviour. Have you tried changing your position, location and retrieve item? Sometimes if Zig got "stuck" I'd sit on the floor in the hallway with him and shape with his dinner. Or sit in a chair. Or sit outside. And shape using lots of different objects before he got one perfectly. I think this helps because they can be very specific about behaviours - when you change "the picture" it opens up other options for them.

What is it with these dogs that fling??? wuffles, you know Ziggy thinks your Ava is VERY special indeed tlc - he's an ESS puppy on loan for training and socialsing - he needs more of the former and less of the latter - wants to be everybody's new best friend :laugh: Check out the retrieve on him! Oh and the propensity for box shredding :laugh: Absolutely it's genetic - this pup has to carry something everywhere, even when he toilets! Otherwise why else would we have gundogs!

I may or may not have ordered Ziggy a new winter coat.... I've actually started another Wish List for the express purposes of putting in an order in when I next go to the US

tlc - my Dally HATED retrieving and HATED tugging. Now they are two of his favourite things but gosh he was a tough nut to crack! It's so amazing now to have a breed who lives to retrieve and I never take it for granted! I did work through it with Zig - partly for the challenge (really kept the training light though) but also so that he learned to accept whatever reward I chose. Not what he wanted. I think it was at that point that our trialling relationship went through the roof although I continue to use rewards very creatively. Em is just happy with a nose touch :laugh: Should also add that I did shape the retrieve with Em anyway - although it took about 5 mins! It helped so much when her delivery went awry down the track. Another edit! I'm going to start shaping the pup this week too - he's about 17 weeks.

It's amazing what you inadvertently teach! I had to fix Em's weaves tonight - I hadn't realised how much she relied on my position so used 4 poles, some inginuity and the BRILLIANT Ready Treat from Clean Run. In addition to other suggestions what about getting her to sit in front? She cannot fling if she is sitting still - so the criteria becomes sitting still and sniffing the article etc.

Completely OT but the cartoon in your sig just made me :D That was SO me at training last night - there were "screw up cookies" being handed out left, right and centre

You and me both baby May the writing Dogs be with you :D

If you have a lazy afternoon, have a look at the RSPCA seminar from 2003- some interesting reading, personal perspectives and half decent referencing on feral animal control. Some of the legislation is probably a bit outdated but it gives a good idea about what is going on in the background. ETA: How I love thee Endnote, let me count the ways :laugh:

Meant to add that too: Green CJ (1982) Animal anaesthesia in Laboratory animals handbook 8. Laboratory Animals Ltd, London. I actually have more issues with the use of 1080.

I was just tidying up and came across a lit review I wrote regarding feral cat control. Looked up the original references and it was as I remembered. Carbon monoxide (CO) inhalation causes rapid death - atmospheric concentrations of more than 2% will cause rapid death without pain or appreciable discomfort in most mammals. Sensory irritation unlikely even at 80% concentration. Mammals rapidly lose consciousness before respiratory failure occurs. More humane and higher efficacy than chloropicrin (tear gas) and phosphine gas.

lol - was looking through some revision notes today and don't I know that feeling :laugh: On my iPhone at the moment but did they say how they were administering the CO? Must be very localised as it doesn't take much to knock out a human.