hortfurball

Downstairs is safest for him. He shouldn't be allowed on the stairs even if he wants to until you're certain he has 100% balance back. How is he getting worse? That's not an IVS symptom in my limited experience of it. As far as I know, when it happens, the dog is suddenly affected to the fullest extent and then very slowly recovers. Is he only getting worse in his attitude (seems to be tired of feeling out of sorts and a bit miserable that it hasn't gone away) or is he getting worse physically?

I don't remember leaving a light on for him but once he was settled on his bed at night there was no way he was moving if he could help it! Like you I also helped him to stand up and to walk. In his last year he didn't have the strength in his rear end and I often helped him to get up off his bed. From page one of this thread...(I left all the tips in case you find something useful but Tip 4 refers to the IVS) I think it was the IVS that stopped him wanting to walk so far. He was always a little more unsteady on his feet after it and seemed to tire more easily. The IVS episode stopped me taking him for regular walks, and we never really picked it up again. He seemed to satisfy his exercise needs just going out as far as the lawn to toilet. The eyesight problem you mention may just be confusion. Also, bear in mind, if he has IVS, his world will be spinning, like being drunk. Hard for a dog to figure that out. Hope he recovers well.

GSPmadhouse, that does sound like vestivular syndrome (my old boy had it), although if his ears weren't checked, then that needs to be done to rule out an inner ear infection. From my investigations: The main indicator is a head tilt The eyes can do their thing early on and by the time you find the dog, they seem normal again as the flickering is so minimal we can't see it, or is/was non existent (some dogs don't seem to get the eye movements). It is refered to as idiopathic for a reason. They don't know what causes it therefore it's very difficult to definitively diagnose. It can present differently in different cases, and varies in extremity, how fast the dog recovers and the degree to which the dog recovers. Sometimes they always have a bit of a head tilt after recovery Keep your poor old boy downstairs for a few weeks, maybe forever, depending on how he's going. My boy took a few weeks to come right and tended to always be a bit more unsteady from that point on. My vet described it as a breakdown in the communication between the brain and the balance system. Your boy may be feeling nauseous and go off his food, he will also be feeling a bit unsure and confused. Some dogs get a bit bad tempered with this confusion and nausea (luckily I had a doofus and he was just happily confused). My boy went on to live for about another year and a half after his episode of IVS. This is my old boy after about a week (It didn't occur to me to get a video sooner unfortunately) Click on the pic and it will play a short video (only 17 seconds) You can find more examples on youtube. This has some good info: http://www.vara.org/...larSyndrome.htm

Yep, she is going to be a big girl when she grows up.. How funny, I thought 10 kilos was small for 4 months, but then I realised I was comparing her to large and giant breed pups. I still think she'll only be about kelpie sized, and max out at about 22-25 kilos. I've seen heaps of pups that have this look, would love to know what the background really is. Those short tan coats have to come from somewhere, and I wouldn't have thought there were that many ridgies with negligent owners around to account for it, unless they are mutts bred from mutts bred from mutts... She is a pretty girl. :)

Well, the pic vanished, but I'm just letting you know that I'm stealing it! I totally agree with this - iPods were made for those of us that don't want to listen to others kids carrying on in public. However, it is still the responsibility of those that choose to have children to make sure they don't bother those of us that don't want to be bothered in public places :) I'm glad you think this, because some of us, for various reasons, have no intention of ever getting an ipod. I personally prefer to be aware of my surroundings at all times. Also, if it's loud enough to disguise a wailing child, it's too loud for my ears. A friend once thrust her baby into my arms and ran back out of the door to get her stuff. I held the baby exactly the way she plonked it in my arms, and the baby and I just stared at each other in shock for a minute. When the friend came back inside, she said "Oh, you could have put her down, you know. You didn't have to keep holding her." Could have told me that before! If it's the first time baby and I have clapped eyes on each other, and you say "Here, look after her for a minute for me" and run away, how am I to know at what age her neck can support her head? How am I to know that you were ok with me putting your baby on the floor with the dogs and cats?

Sorry, not laughing over you being verbally abused, just over the bit in brackets.

...or opened it and taken a bite out of it. Have you ever tried to shop with a 2-3 yr old?? Its the worst thing ever and if I have to give my son something to eat to shut him up in the supermarket ,I will. I am after all paying for it!! Seriously some people ought to mind there own business. I'm sure all the child haters would prefer my toddler to be happily munching on something than screaming the place down. Sheeze, you just can't win. AND don't ask me to bring food from home as the supermarket workers think you may have stolen it . AND don't ask me to feed my child before or after I shop, they are not machines that are programed to eat when you want them too, as much as I would love that!. I would of course prefer not to have a hungry kid with me at all when I shop ( just to keep you happy) but thats impossible. SORRY !!! I really don't care if you pay before or after so long as you do pay. The original comment that inspired the comment that inspired your wrath was actually about the product we pick up to buy, only to find it has been half consumed and then put back onto the shelf. Now that's just revolting, and I don't blame the kids, I blame the parent/s in this case. Nothing worse than to see a slightly sucked food item in the packet you were about to purchase. One person took it a little out of context and offended your sensibilities but seriously, feel free to keep going exactly as you are, I for one don't have the slightest issue so long as you are taking it all with you and not leaving a trail of gooey, semi-masticated, mangled or smashed products behind on the shelves.

I agree apartently oru barin fxies ti all pu adn fisl ni teh balkns nad nujmubels ti. !! :D Unless you have a typo!! shouldn't that be flisl? ;) I've always loved this one! Have heard a few people mistakenly use it - cracks me up every time. :laugh: A lot of people think it's 'oldtimer's disease'. I did when I was a kid too. The curse of the aussie accent and people who don't enunciate clearly. His Grandma rocks!! :) Go Persephone! You're sharp today! Edit to add the oldtimers bit

I agree. Poor girl, only three weeks after a major op. I cringed when I read it, imagining the pain it would have caused her. A combination of bad timing and a momentary lapse of judgment on your son's part. He's very sweet to realise it too and obviously loves his dog very much. Perhaps a good time to stop him lying on her now that he's getting bigger even though they seem to have both enjoyed it in the past. Pockets, seriously! You'd have the dog PTS? You have major abdominal surgery and I'll come and jump on you. See if you snap? As someone else said - big difference between stepping on a tail and really hurting the dog. Ella has been stepped on, kicked, poked, elbowed etc etc (all accidentally of course), and her only reaction was to yelp and move away, but the one time I did accidentally really hurt her, she too snapped (no contact). This is the same dog who will give up her bone on command and let me get all sorts of stuff out from between her teeth and from across the roof of her mouth (she likes to chew sticks and gumnuts :rolleyes:) I have NO fear of putting my hands in her mouth.

7H3 HUM4N BR41N 15 4N 1NCR3D1BL3 7H1NG - 17'5 4M4Z1NG WH47 W3 C4N UND3R574ND 1F W3 7RY H4RD 3N0UGH!

Now I feel like the biggest idiot in the world, having used this on numerous occasions. You're right, of course they don't - who teaches their dog that? Great post! I think in the past I negatively affected my dogs by reacting with apprehension and aggression towards an approaching dog. It was difficult to remain calm because Kuges had been set upon so often. I'm a lot calmer walking Ella now, and have a tendency to just body block and ask the owner to contain their dog as I try to walk off.

What a gorgeous girl! Love that cheeky expression and the wrinkly forehead. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if she's only 10 kilos at 4 months, add some kelpie to the mix. My guess would be kelpie x ridgie x staffy x maybe lab? She's a cutiepie whatever she is.

...or opened it and taken a bite out of it. Brilliant post! This pretty much sums up for me what I've been trying to say for thirty pages. Apparently I like kids but don't like parents :laugh:

Page 30, thanks Mags I agree. I think that the majority of those who would participate in a dog forum are very loving but realistic and practical about the way in which they treat their pets. But I'm sure we have all been witness to the "pet treated as child' paradym I refer to. But I don't think you'd find them on a kiddies forum. Nor do I, hence the wink! :) Name ONE person who claimed that as their ONLY reason. I'll give you a tip, don't waste your time looking back through the thread, there wasn't one. No need to apologise LizT, you haven't said anything nasty. Threads on DOL have a tendency to go off on tangents, and to be honest I think this usually makes for interesting reading and sometimes some lively philosophical discussions. If nothing else, this thread is interesting and compelling (threads don't get to 30 pages if they're boring), and hopefully may help some people understand a diametrically opposing point of view without thinking that one opinion is right and one is wrong (probably wishful thinking on my part.) To add yet another tangent, when I mentioned this thread to my OH, his response was "That's why democracies don't work, because you can never get 100% of people to agree on something, so someone will always be unhappy." He has a point. What's funny? The fact that it supports Greytmate's hormonal comments about parents or the fact that it suggests that we non-parents might be sociopathic, psychopathic, narcissistic or manipulative? Or the fact that it insults every last one of us whichever side we're on?

On the other hand... Actually, if your child came up and said hello, I'd smile and say hello back, whereas I struggle to respond appropriately to 'greeters' being paid to say hello to me in Bunnings (I don't get the point of this - it's not like they are offering their help to find something, it's just a random person blocking your way and insisting you interact with them for a split second for no good reason And they're not even genuine, they're being PAID to do it! WTF?) Totally disagree with this theory. I am totally able to have kids and I don't like them. Well I assume that I could have had kids if I wanted to. My ability to have a child was never tested. Same here. BTW Donatella, didn't your first post on this subject vanish due to insensitivity? I'm rather surprised you went there again. Also, it is not necessary to presume we are all bitter and twisted because we don't think exactly the same as you do. Awesome post! I still care about being considered a leper though, and about the misconception that we are all running around telling children and the mothers of newborn babies that we think they're awful. ;) And the misconception that we think it's perfectly ok for others to do this too. Am answering for me anyway. It is NOT BITTERNESS . If you have suffered a loss, some people simply sometimes dont like having the pain of that loss shoved in their face to make the mental hurt and anguish worse. There is a BIIIIG DIFFERENCE!!!!!!! Some people may express they dont 'like' or 'get on' with kids because it is the simplest and easiest way to explain to someone without going into a whole essay about why they may not want to be around that particular child. Maybe the child is being a right brat and annoying the heck out of them and this is the 'polite' way to say 'your parenting skills suck' Maybe they are feeling unwell and need to sleep and rest and being disturbed by a child will do them no good - other people may have health issues they don't tell you about Maybe they have suffered loss and having the child around is opening too many wounds that are too much to bear - be careful as the extreme flip side may be a woman who snaps and steals the child. Maybe they have suffered from post natal depression and having your child around and in their face is helping to kick that back into gear - something they dont want to deal with I'll bet. MAYBE by saying simply they dont particularly like kids they are BEING POLITE and trying to withdraw from the situaiton - and hoping you will respect their space and not shove your child at them. There may be a LOT more to someone saying they 'don't like' kids than it seems on the surface Maybe these same people are more than happy to interact with children at certain other times and really enjoy it - but also maybe NOT RIGHT NOW. Rant over... for now Another excellent post! I don't think you'll find one person who has admitted to not being fond of children in this thread who thinks of their dog as a child. I think DorytheDotedOne was correct with her 'princess' theory, and I'm not sure those types would be on DOL. If their dog is their 'child', they'd more likely be found on a kiddies forum, not a dog forum. ;)

That's calling it true. I don't think any of us expected to be called shallow for having the guts to come out and try to answer the initial rather controversial question honestly and straightforwardly. Well, given that we're at 26 pages (I haven't even made it past P22 at time of posting) and there are some that STILL don't get it, and are STILL treating us as if we're broken because we don't go all gushy over the idea of a baby, then I think I'll just stick with "I don't like kids." It's quicker and easier than going into all the individual conditions and exceptions, and if people ask why, "I have my reasons." is an involved enough answer. well I can't speak for other posters but it gets pretty annoying when you have to keep explaining yourself because people just can't accept the way you want to live your life. Not meaning here, but everywhere. So true! It came across as the second meaning to me and a few others, Greytmate obviously being one of them. Yep, Leper syndrome - just add lack of biological desire for children or appreciation of others' and watch people back away. It is how people openly express themselves that I believe the OP was questioning. Whether someone likes or dislikes children or chooses to have children or not isn't the issue IMO It is however obvious that many have no issue with people being so openly rude. then you aren't reading posts properly. I and other people said that she was very rude. I said earlier that she may have just been a very rude person and it had nothing to do with whether or not she liked kids others agreed that they wouldn't want to sit next to a child, but not necessarily agreed with how she went about it This. The OP had a few questions in it, not just the bit you quoted Crisovar. I think it's quite rare that someone would be that outwardly rude. Not one person here has said they'd be nasty to a child. The overall consensus is we just like to avoid them if possible but can deal fairly and humanely with them when required. We're not monsters, although sometimes are treated as such. Wow, just glanced at the latest posts...given how relevant to the current posts my comments are, it seems that we haven't moved forward in 4 pages.

yes Yes. And I think this is where the lack of respect for todays society elders, teachers, parents etc. comes about. I'm certainly not saying it is anyone elses responsibility to raise someone elses child, but everyone a child comes into contact with from the sales assistant who serves their mother when mum is buying them school shoes to the teacher who stands in front of them each day, has an impact that will fashion their thinking and shape who they are, regardless of whether that person likes kids or not. Unfortunately the lack of respect for today's elders, teachers etc is supported by the fact that those figures have no authority over children anymore. Teacher "Sit down and pay attention to the lesson" Child "You can't make me" Teacher thinks "Thirty years ago I could have" (we've swayed slightly off topic here) I may not be fond of spending time with children and will readily admit it, but your child will never be negatively affected by an interaction with me (unless they ask me outright "Do you like children?" in which case I'm most likely to answer honestly with "Not really.") Just today while walking Ella, a little girl saw us, said "dog!" and moved away. I could have completely ignored her and kept walking, but instead I said in a friendly voice, "It's ok, she likes children, she even plays chasey with them." (inherent instinct for dog advocacy I think.) Of course once I was out of earshot I joked quietly to OH "and then catches them and EATS them!"

I don't understand this. Only people who decide to have a child are going to be able to bring it up "me, me" style. Those of us who have no kids did not breed these selfish children. If a child is brought up in a 'me, me' style, or if children are considered the "me, me" generation why would anyone else want to be near them? If you think it is important to have extended family around kids, there is your reason why I should never have any. I am glad we live in a society that values individualism more than valuing traditional patriarchal family structures. It means that people like me that don't have the biological urge to breed are not trapped in a hideous life in servitude of the children we were expected to have. Try thinking of it in the context of "It takes a village to raise a child". :) That is what I am implying, that the nuclear (closed) family, where we don't have the benefit of the expected respect and input of say, the elderly, neighbours, close friends etc. creates a secular, self absorbed society and we raise children in this environment today. I still don't understand. isn't that up to you as parents? Surely it is up to you to teach you children respect and seek out input from those you want it. But really it is not up to everyone else to raise your child Actually, Liz has a point. But unfortunately in today's litigious society, nobody is going to take responsibility for anyone else's kid in case they get in trouble. In the days where it took a village to raise a child, the adults had the right to discipline the child, and could hug or comfort a child without being accused of inappropriate touching, so we have created this 'secular, self absorbed society', and it is reflected in the behaviour of today's children to a great degree, which just makes people want even less to do with them. Yes, but it was their choice to travel with the child. My choice is to travel without, and that includes other people's. Noone likes listening to the squealing of children on planes (particularly the parent) but until it is banned (aka never) I suggest you build a bridge or buy some ear plugs I don't think anyone's calling for it to be banned. :laugh: The point here seems to have been lost along the way - that is, someone has the right to be moved in a plane if they don't want to sit next to a screaming child/man/woman/whoever. I agree, but the person stated that parents chose to travel with children and they chose to travel without. There really is no choosing to travel without children on planes unless they are banned. Yes you can asked to be moved (and have every right to do so) but to say you don't want to travel on planes with children at all is a far fetched statement that will never eventuate (because odds are there might be one sitting somewhere on the flight and we all know noise carries) Wow, that was a very literal interpretation. I would have thought it was fairly obvious that I meant sitting right next to me, as in traveling WITH a child vs NOT traveling WITH a child. I didn't mean I never wanted to be within a hundred feet of one or that they should be banned. Believe it or not, I've even had kids sit on my lap on occasion.

That is indeed one of my reasons for not wanting to have a child. Well said. I feel exactly the same. So glad I wasn't born thirty + years earlier than I was. Yes, but it was their choice to travel with the child. My choice is to travel without, and that includes other people's. Read the last 15 pages again, you obviously missed something.

Do they actually say they dislike all children or simply say they dont feel maternal and cant build a bond with a baby/child? I think disliking or hating children is probably very different to someone who just doesnt connect with them. I think kids are great and have a lot in my life but I just didnt manage to give birth to them. Many variations on a theme Raz. Like... I can't stand kids. I don't like kids. I'm not a kid person. I hate babies, tehy smell. I prefer animals over kids any day. rada rada rada All entitled opinions of course but I still get taken aback. My problem it would seem. ;) I have said most of the above at different times (exception being the 'hate babies' comment). Even though I have said I can't stand them, obviously I can because I haven't dropped dead yet when one has approached. I don't seek out the company of children, I'd rather talk to someone I can understand and relate to. I do not like badly behaved children I admit, but then I don't like badly behaved dogs either, or badly behaved adults for that matter. Total flame suit moment - I'll come clean and say I think most babies are ugly They are pink squished things that look like wizened little old men, and sorry but I just don't find anything appealing about them. Obviously there are some exceptions - I did once see one little girl baby at the supermarket that was cute as a button. She could only have been a few weeks old so usually in the 'don't like it' basket for me, but she was actually pretty. This thread must have taken some strange turns since last night. Lots of missing posts and quite disjointed to read, especially when things are quoted without the original post being there... Your chocolate would be safe in my fridge. :) I still have chocolates left over from christmas, I'm eating them gradually, when I remember they're there. Chocolate mudcake vs lemon meringue pie, I'll have the lemon thanks.

OMG! She's so gorgeous! Thanks for sharing - brought a smile to my dial. :)

I'm sure some are, but when I was at school there were also quite a number that weren't Lol cat I think I am referring to young children they do become les desirable after they reach um 5 lol lol Glad you clarified that, because school age kids are often horribly cruel, ask any victim of bullying. I find this quite insulting. Why should you feel sad for those of us who don't go all gooey over kids? Nobody has said they HATE them and most have said they are nice to them when they need to be even while choosing to avoid them if possible. I don't think we deserve the angry face thanks. A genuine question was asked and we shouldn't be judged for answering. Aside from that, you are presuming that none of us have a skerrick of patience and tolerance between us. How rude. Most have stated that whilst they don't crave the company of children, they also play with them and chat with them if put in that situation. I haven't read one post yet where the person said they would be rude to the child. (Actually I came closest when I said I told one off, but she'd been a brat for hours beforehand and her mother wasn't helping.) Same.

I have my OH for that ;) OMG, sorry but I'm stealing that!

Because human nature is variable and there are some aspects of children that aren't very likeable, often starting with their parents. You don't have to hate kids to ask not to be seated next to one on a long haul flight. They often don't make for a restful trip. For the record - I don't hate kids. I don't love them either. They're little individuals and I can take them or leave them depending on their personalities and their parenting. Frankly I feel the same way about dogs. But if you want me to gush with unreserved affection and coo at something - show me a puppy. ;) Now why couldn't I have put it all as succinctly as that? Nice to see you back! :) I know this was directed at someone else, but I'm going to borrow it. I treat them like people. I talk to them like I would anyone else, and strangely, they seem to like me, maybe because I don't talk down to them or baby them. If they are being annoying though, I'll employ any avoidance tactics I can. If they are in my house and their parent is letting them run amok by repeating empty threats over and over while the bad behaviour is repeated (this has happened - dreadful parenting!), I will take over the disciplinary role if MY pets/plants/things are threatened. Kid cried but only because nobody had ever spoken to her like that before. I told her to buck up and stop her crying cos it wasn't going to get her anywhere. Good as gold for the rest of the visit, and even developed an interest in speaking to me - go figure. Shame mum was oblivious to the fact that her own lack of skills was creating her 'problem child'.

*Dons flame suit* Never had kids and no intention of doing so, and please don't pass me your baby to hold because I simply don't understand why you'd want me to hold it, nor why you'd think I'd want to. Just because I was once one, doesn't mean I have to like them by default. This is just an acknowledgement that kids can be just as, if not more, destructive than dogs, so why should dog owners be treated as if they have leprosy when renting, yet there isn't even a 'child bond'. As to the rest, there is a difference between disliking children, and choosing not to 'hang out with' them. I don't 'dislike' children, but I do dislike a lot of things that tend to come with them, in particular - noise and smell. I'll be the first to admit that I wouldn't want to sit next to a child on a plane, and would probably request not to. If it's a baby, it is probably going to get stressed by the change in pressure, and wail, and is also highly likely to need to go to the toilet at some stage. With my superhuman sense of smell, the other end of the plane is close enough thanks. As to the wailing, while I would feel pity for the baby because it doesn't know why its ears hurt nor how to alleviate it, I would also want to be nowhere near that amount of constant and not very pleasant noise, which I'm afraid, would outweigh the pity. If it's a toddler or a few years older, it will be bored out of it's brain stuck on a long flight and my patience for "but Muuuuummm..." (or any other repetitive whining) will run out long before doting mum's will. If you have a well behaved child that will wait til the adults pause in conversation to say "Excuse me mummy"(or will interrupt to say excuse me, but then wait) , will play nicely with my dogs and cats and won't destroy my garden or shred the leaves of my plants, feel free to bring your child when you visit. If you have a child who will do the 'excuse me mummy' thing over and over at the top of its lungs until you yell "WHAT?" everytime you have spent more than two seconds in conversation instead of focussed on them, and when not interrupting, will demolish whatever it can lay its hands on, chase the cats and pull the dog's tail, I'm probably not going to invite you more than once unless you are willing to leave said child at home until it grows out of this stage. Having said all that, if a child, ANY child, was in genuine trouble, consider this a safe haven.