First Time Puppy Owner

Well Benson is doing really well on the EPO shampoo and I have him on EPO, fish oil and flaxseed tablets 2 each per day. After the first two weeks of every 4 day bathing the orange that was on his coat started to fade and now has completely disappeared, the redness of his skin between his hind legs has died down signiificantly, almost normal and we are now onto every week bathing! I really think it has been a massive improvement but I am now focusing on repairing his immune system, through a Homeopathic vet - so I will let you know how we go on that front too. But I back EPO shampoo 100% for the relief it has provided my boy!!!

Yep we sure do - you have no idea all the things I have tried. Yet I do not think diet has ever been an issue, as Benson's skin problems started quite suddenly in Mid Nov. But the reason I personally wanted to put Benson on EP Duck was because at that stage it was the best you could get in Australia and thought having a single protein source might assist with his body coping with the allergies and was crossing fingers that the oatmeal also might be beneficial. However I am seeing changes in Benson since we saw Dr Stevenson - he has heaps more energy and he said that would happen with the treatment so just a matter of time to see how he does - I am quietly optomistic that this will fix him completely as he was so very confident that this will repair his immune system and that will then allow his body to fix itself. All the best!! We recently went to a dermatology siminar thing at the uni, and both dermatologists there said they had seen improvements in atopic (seasonal allergies) dogs when they were put on hypoallergenic diets!! That's why I thought I would put him on it, as it can only help really... *sigh*

Yep we sure do - you have no idea all the things I have tried. Yet I do not think diet has ever been an issue, as Benson's skin problems started quite suddenly in Mid Nov. But the reason I personally wanted to put Benson on EP Duck was because at that stage it was the best you could get in Australia and thought having a single protein source might assist with his body coping with the allergies and was crossing fingers that the oatmeal also might be beneficial. However I am seeing changes in Benson since we saw Dr Stevenson - he has heaps more energy and he said that would happen with the treatment so just a matter of time to see how he does - I am quietly optomistic that this will fix him completely as he was so very confident that this will repair his immune system and that will then allow his body to fix itself.

Well the information I read on EP Duck was about 60 days to see change yet I do know if I will actually get to see assistance from the food specifically as Benson and i have been to see a homeopathic vet and he is giving him a mixture to try to fix his immune system. So regardless at this point in time I kind of am at the point with his allergies that I don't care what is the fix but i just want my baby all better!

Following that logic all the grain free (low carb) dry foods that are high in protein should be OK for puppies. I think that is right too!

I emailed the Natural Pet Store last night about Orijen and Deborah was ever so kind to response really promptly and I hope she is not upset by this, but here is a little bit of her email to me. This is making sense to me - you know!?!? "From my understanding, it is not the high protein levels which may cause problems, it is the calcium/phosphorus ratios and the calorie levels. I was also told that it is the amount of ash in the product which can be an issue as ash contains calcium, phosphorus and other minerals. High ash levels indicate the amount of bone that is in the product and the quality of the pet food. Better quality meats produce less ash. Orijen uses fresh deboned meats so there is less ash content. A lot of pet foods don’t list the % of ash, however the Orijen ash levels are around 6.5%-7% which is quite low. Orijen contains the correct calcium and phosphorus levels to maintain overall health."

I was only able to sore the purple bag here in qld. Then I changed him over to EP Duck because he is suffering big time with allergies and did that at 11 mths. There is so much conflicting information about what age is appropriate to change them n to Adult food and I have even heard others continuing puppy food for years and years! I guess as the skin issues with Benson were getting more problematic I decided that his development was nearing an end at that it was best to try to help his itching more so. Stormie - I am with you 110% it's like a bl**dy mine field when you are trying to understand which literature is correct and what is best ... *sigh*

Aaawww spanks! I just hoped I wasn't upsetting you or overstepping my welcome to the discussion, as sometimes my mind gets carried away before thinking about peoples feelings on here, as you can't see their reactions and I rely heavily upon body language Edit - I know that research and advancement in knowledge is fantastic, yet sometimes I feel we are being overloaded with information and everytime you blink there is yet another better product on the market than before - whether it be a camera, phone or dog food and yet our recent past shows that they did ok!?! Then again I know that we are all living longer because of these advancements in research, but I just wish it was simpler to digest! It seems you must do even more research yourself to make sure that the facts you read on one website are the 'Real Facts!" You know what I mean?!?!

PS THANK YOU SHEREE_E4 She put me on to it!

What are you using on the animals?

http://www.bayeranimal.com.au/default.aspx...0&ItemId=29 I have used KO tablets and they worked great IMO, but that only does 50 m sq'ed so here is another of their products if the professionals are too costly! Green box on the right had side of screen directions for use 10mls to a litre does 100 m sq'ed!

Sorry Stormie I have not meant to hijack your thread and I hope you don't feel I have I am just striving to understand more, as I am sure you are too! You know that last article I post, the last para reads as below - The common practice of feeding commercially available adult dog foods to puppies can also be detrimental. The broad category of adult canine maintenance foods contains diets with a wide range of nutrient profiles, caloric densities, and mineral contents. Some foods marketed for adult maintenance have passed AAFCO feeding tests for growth, but some have not. Regardless, in some instances, these diets provide more calcium per calorie and/or have more calories per cup than growth diets designed for large breed puppies. A large breed growth diet that has passed AAFCO animal feeding tests should be fed at least until the puppy reaches about 80% of the expected adult weight, and it will not be detrimental to keep a healthy, lean puppy on growth formula until full adult size is achieved. Above all, remember to feed a large breed growth formula in sufficient quantities to maintain a lean body condition, and avoid additional supplements. So I am reading from that as he is almost an adult weight and it should not be too detrimental for me to have feed Benson the EP duck for only the last couple of weeks!

Can I just say this is dog food stuff is doing my head in - hell, I would be super human if I looked after myself half as well

I have had him on EP large Breed Puppy up until just the last couple of weeks. Excuse my ignorance but the following is the break down of the large breed puppy formula. Could you please explain the 1:2:1 thing over the 2:1 - thank you ;) Crude Protein - Min. 23.0%, G9, Crude Fat - Min. 12.0%, Crude Fiber - Max. 3.5%, Moisture - Max. 10.0%, Calcium - Min. 1.5%, Phosphorus - Min. 1.0%, Vitamin A - Min. 22,000 IU/kg, Vitamin E - Min. 300 IU/kg, Omega 6 - Min. 2.9%*, Omega 3 - Min. 0.58%*, Glucosamine - Min. 800 ppm 82 mg/cup*, 389 ME (Kcal/cup) In the large puppy you have Calcium - Min. 1.5%, Phosphorus - Min. 1.0% so 1.5:1 In the other one it was Calcium - Min. 1%, Phosphorus - Min. 0.55% so 1:0.55 (or close to 2:1) I am such a dodo head - I read it as 1:2:1 - doh! Thank you for that Laffi!

I have had him on EP large Breed Puppy up until just the last couple of weeks. Excuse my ignorance but the following is the break down of the large breed puppy formula. Could you please explain the 1:2:1 thing over the 2:1 - thank you Crude Protein - Min. 23.0%, G9, Crude Fat - Min. 12.0%, Crude Fiber - Max. 3.5%, Moisture - Max. 10.0%, Calcium - Min. 1.5%, Phosphorus - Min. 1.0%, Vitamin A - Min. 22,000 IU/kg, Vitamin E - Min. 300 IU/kg, Omega 6 - Min. 2.9%*, Omega 3 - Min. 0.58%*, Glucosamine - Min. 800 ppm 82 mg/cup*, 389 ME (Kcal/cup)

Agreed GL - that's why we went from Large Breed Puppy EP to Holistic Duck EP! Ingredients Duck Meal, Oatmeal, Ground Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Dried Beet Pulp, Sun-Cured Alfalfa, Air Dried Peas, Flaxseed, Brewers Dried Yeast, Tomato Pomace, Dried Egg Product, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Menhaden Oil, Dried Carrots, Quinoa (Organic), Sweet Potato, Inulin, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, DL-Methionine, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Pantothenic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Rosemary Extract, Inositol, Dehydrated Kelp, Polysaccharide Complexes (sequestered) of Zinc, Iron, Manganese, Copper and Cobalt, Potassium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Enterococcus faecium, B. Subtillus, Bacillus Lichenformis, Bacillus Coagulins, Aspergillus Oryzae and Aspergillus Niger. Analysis Crude Protein - Min. 23.0%,Crude Fat - Min. 13.0%, Crude Fiber - Max. 3.9, Moisture - Max. 10.0%, Calcium - Min. 1.0%, Glucosamine - Min. 400 ppm 41 mg/cup*, Phosphorus - Min. 0.55%, Vitamin A - Min. 22,000 IU/kg, Vitamin E - Min. 125 IU/kg, Omega 6 - Min. 2.5%*, Omega 3 - Min. 0.5%*, 386 ME (Kcal/cup) PS - EP have change this recipe since the review was done by that website that I quoted before - it no longer has white rice!

http://sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/Opt...d%20puppies.pdf this seems like a fantastic article - yet to read it through completely, but seems to be sensible. from my skimming over it - the amount of food given is the key as the percentage of crude protein is different to the amount they will actually eat as such ... I think

http://www.wenwen.ws/pet/Dog/Is-it-bad-to-...-3onf023466.htm Just found this If it is a LARGE BREED PUPPY (e.g. German Sheperd, etc.): Yes. If a large breed puppy has too much protein, it can grow at abnormal rates, causing it to have weak joints. This is normally irreversible, so I would not suggest trying it.

I am in the same boat I only just started my boy on EP holistic duck so will not change immediately that's for sure as it is a 13.6kg bag. Plus I kind of think he is too young at this stage as I don't believe he has finish growing yet either - so I will certainly try them when he reaches 18 mths. I also kind of thought that feeding a dog a high protein diet might make them more energetic too as I have noticed the Power Formulas seem to have a higher level of protein. But since then I have been advised by a great friend that it doesn't do that - plus you feed according to activity level, so if you skip a day of exercise they will not go nuts and that it just seems to have helped her dog's overall wellbeing instead.

http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/protein.html Exert from above link - Ahhhhhh. . . I know what you're thinking! Too much protein! Kidney damage! Well, guess what? The very early research that pointed a finger at protein as being a cause of kidney failure in dogs wasn't even done on dogs! It was done on rats fed unnatural diets for a rodent... diets high in protein. (Were we tinkering with Nature during these “tests”?) Rats have difficulty excreting excess protein in their diets because they are essentially plant eaters, not meat eaters. Dogs are quite able to tolerate diets with protein levels higher than 30% on a dry weight basis. Dogs are meat eaters; that's how Nature made them! Rats are not. So some of the early research on rats was assumed to be true for dogs... and the myth of "too much protein in a dog's diet causes kidney damage" was started. And just like any seemingly valid rumor or assertion, it derived a life of its own and is only recently being accepted as untrue. Here is just one of many references that recently have appeared asserting the lack of data indicating that reducing the protein level in a food helps to protect the kidneys... Kirk's Veterinary Therapy XIII, Small Animal Practice, page 861, written by Finco, Brown, Barsanti and Bartges "...restriction of protein intake does not alter the development of renal lesions nor does it preserve renal function. Considering these (research) findings, the authors do not recommend reduction of dietary protein in dogs with renal disease or reduced renal function in order to achieve renoprotective effects." They do recommend, though, that once a Blood Urea Nitrogen (BUN) level reaches 75, which is very elevated, that some restriction of protein intake be considered for beneficial effects unrelated to kidney function dynamics. These authors point out that Phosphorus blood levels can play a major role in the health status of dogs with compromised kidney function.

I saw that too. 42% Perhaps later down the track!

This is a review of Orijen The first three ingredients of this food are all named meat products, two of which are in meal form. There are further meat ingredients fifth, ninth and tenth on the ingredient list. We can thus have a high level of confidence in the meat content of this food, which the manufacturer states to be 70% of the total. This is an entirely grainless dog food. The major carbohydrate source is potatoes, which are also a good source of B vitamins and other minerals. There is a good range of fruits/vegetables in the food, whole eggs and a good range of probiotics. This food is outstanding in that it contains no grains whatsoever. Grains are not a natural part of a canine diet and it is pleasing to see dog foods on the market that exclude grains completely from the diet. This is a far more natural food concept and combined with a complete lack of any low quality or controversial ingredients is the reason this food is placed in a class above the more conventional form dry dog foods. The only caution we would make on this food is that the high protein content may make it suitable for adult dogs only, particularly in the case of large breeds. The manufacturer has provided the following statement in regards to the use of Ethoxyquin (a chemical preservative often found in fish ingredients): "All ingredients are purchased ethoxyquin free and we maintain written quality protocols and supplier agreements to this effect. All ORIJEN fish meals are preserved exclusively with NATUR-OX (a blend of rosemary and mixed tocopherals), and our fresh fish are truly FRESH -arriving without any preservatives what-so-ever." EDIT - ALSO NOTE THAT BOTH THE PUPPY FORMULAS LARGE AND MEDIUM HAVE THE SAME HIGH PROTEIN!

This is the review of Artemis The first ingredient in this food is a named meat product. There is a second meat ingredient fourth on the ingredient list, but this is meat inclusive of water content (about 80%) and once that is removed, as it must be to create a dehydrated product, the ingredient will weigh around 20% of its wet weight and would be more accurately placed somewhat further down the ingredient list (ingredients are listed in order of weight). It is thus unlikely to be a significant contributor to the overall meat content of the food. As there are only two ingredients ahead of the fat content (itself around 20%), and the meat ingredient is the greater of these two components, we can have a reasonable amount of confidence that the product contains a good amount of meat irrespective that it is a single ingredient. We note that fat is the third ingredient in this food and that research at Purdue University has identified fat in the top four ingredients of dry food as a factor increasing the risk of bloat in large breed dogs. Smaller breeds are untested. This is an entirely grainless dog food. The major carbohydrate source is potatoes, which are a good source of vegetable protein. The food contains whole eggs, a good range of probiotics and fruits/vegetable ingredients. This food is excellent in containing no grains. Grains are not a natural part of a canine diet and it is pleasing to see dog foods on the market that exclude grains completely from the diet. This is a more natural food concept and combined with high meat content and a complete lack of any low quality or controversial ingredients is the reason this food is placed in a class above the more conventional form dry dog foods. The only caution we would make on this food is that the high protein content may make it suitable for adult dogs only, particularly in the case of large breeds.

Ok I am getting confused again - I get grain free is great yet Artemis and Orejin and all others rated 6 stars except Core seem to have a really high amount of protein in them. So I did a quick google and I found several conflicting articles regarding amount of protein reguired in a dogs diet. Does anyone have more info on this???

http://www.petsonthepark.com.au/category86_1.htm Pets on the park have it too! Are you sure it have be discontinued or is it just that store that no longer wants to carry it?!?!