Falcor

Pax, Correctional trainers and training Keohler I think are two different things. I have seen some very poor replications of supposedly Koehler work in correction training is no wonder trainers moved away from such a system, but in these instances these correction based systems were nothing like Koehler as the system didn't teach the dog the right learning behaviour, it taught only to avoid corrections, bearing in mind Keohlers system aimed at off leash work, cannot correct a dog without a collar and leash, but some of these correction based off shoots of Koehler's system, were solely based on correction avoidance, Koehler taught far more than that.

You sound familiar. I'll make an open admission, my old boy who recently passed away at 11 due to cancer only ever wore a leash crossing the main rd. Illegal, possibly stupid, but that's what we did. I took him to a seminar with dozens of dogs and people (who will happily verify) and left him in a down-stay while I walked to the next building to use the bathroom. I didn't ever proof him to anywhere near that level, he just loved doing stuff for me and with me. We would hike every weekend for hours, including into the evening, where he would like to hunt but would always return to my call (except one time, that sucked, but I found him again, injured). So I'm pretty confident in my training system. I also walk my severely DA dog through off-leash areas every night without incident. These are pretty good tests of reliability I reckon. But sure, no doubt there are some Koehler trainers out there getting similar results. They just aren't so common these days. I am sorry to hear of your old boy's recent passing Adian2 my condolences. Not many people train for general off leash obedience as they used to or train as you have described and regularly tested it's reliability, so the Koehler symbol these days is rarely shown to gain an appreciation for what the system correctly carried out produced, I can understand that today. I think Koehler is often mis-appropriated in some training methods I have seen at obedience clubs with the choke chain said to Koehler which it isn't, I don't know what it is other than traditional yank and crank? Koehler didn't start pups or young dogs off on a short leash and choker, hand yanking them into position as these clubs I have seen project with a short series of about turns 100 times over with a dog cowering correction, Keohler started on a long line where there was distance between the dog handler at the end of the line for the dog to chase you and keep up. The dog wouldn't have hit the end of the line more than 3 or 4 times before he/she focused on the chase making up the game. Long line change of direction in an open space in the Koehler foundation training is not unpleasant for the dog at all in fact you have a wonderful time with a new dog in a long line, "if" you do it properly. By the time you get to the standard leash, the dog has learned focus there are no corrections applied, the dog knows the game and they are focused and attentive. Personally, I think the long line work on a new dog along with toy or food reward as a double reinforcer is an excellent start to leash behaviour, "if" you do it properly.

You sound familiar. I'll make an open admission, my old boy who recently passed away at 11 due to cancer only ever wore a leash crossing the main rd. Illegal, possibly stupid, but that's what we did. I took him to a seminar with dozens of dogs and people (who will happily verify) and left him in a down-stay while I walked to the next building to use the bathroom. I didn't ever proof him to anywhere near that level, he just loved doing stuff for me and with me. We would hike every weekend for hours, including into the evening, where he would like to hunt but would always return to my call (except one time, that sucked, but I found him again, injured). So I'm pretty confident in my training system. I also walk my severely DA dog through off-leash areas every night without incident. These are pretty good tests of reliability I reckon. But sure, no doubt there are some Koehler trainers out there getting similar results. They just aren't so common these days.

I think a lot of people look at it through rose tinted glasses, "In the good old days when Koehler was popular, any dog could behave reliably off leash"... sure. We also didn't have the variety of breeds around that we do now, dogs didn't live as long as they do now, dogs that didn't fit the mould would have likely been shot or PTS rather than worked with like we do now and society overall is completely different - there is no comparing "then" to "now". I am only comparing then to now in regards to leash laws in the sense that we don't put our dogs through the same paces as we did in the old days to test Koehler against the modern training methods. I was pointing out what Koehler was about, to produce the dog in those days that people dreamed of having. Dog training has evolved to suit the times and what we require now from a trained dog, but if you want a companion animal reliable off leash the Koehler system does a good job of that, it certainly doesn't lack anything in that regard which was Koehler's aim. It's like saying a V8 Supercar is no good because you can't get one over the speed bumps at the shops without tearing all the spoilers off being so low to the ground and the interior is full of bars and equipment there is no room for the kids and the dogs, it's true that my old trusty wagon is a far better car for shopping, but I wouldn't want to meet a Supercar on the race track thinking my old wagon was better at that job, so when we discuss Koehler we need to compare apples with apples and reading through these interesting posts I don't see that we are doing that,just my opinion for what it's worth

The dog is isn't looking at the handler? lol. How do you suppose the dog remains in heel if it wasn't paying attention to the handler? Some of us are unconcerned to have a dog stare up at our faces in a trained display of adoration. There is a clear disconnect between dog and handler in that video and it's sad that you can't see that. Look how the dog looks around when it's left in the stand for COP, it's bored and disengaged with the handler, it's just going through the motions. Look how slowly it responds to commands, it takes a century to drop - if that's work you are happy to except with your own dog that is your prerogative, but don't try to tell me that is a great example of a good working partnership between dog and handler, or that training with methods like that produces the best results. Huski, what you have described has no relevence in the Koehler system, the description of the behaviour mentioned doesn't detract from the dog's reliability off leash, detachment from the handler and where the dog is looking doesn't matter to Koehler, it's about the dog not shooting across the road unpredictably and getting hit by a car, a dog breaking a commanded sit and doing the same unattended, a dog being able to be walked off leash in a casual heel through any distractions whilst the handler smells the roses and watches the birds in the sky with no attention on the dog, to walk a 5km path day dreaming and enjoying the sunshine to find at the end of the path the dog remains along side you. That is what Koehler training is about???.

Folks, Koehler's training method was about achieving reliable off leash obedience as the measure. It was nothing about producing animated heeling with a spring in the step and other such behaviour mentioned. It was simply take a Keohler trained dog along a daily routine off leash against a dog trained in another method to test the reliabilty of the dog throughout various distractions and evironments. In Keohler's days there were no leash laws to abide by as we have today, we would never think regardless of the obedience and reliablity we have achieved in sport or other disciplines to simply window shop around the city block casually with an off leash dog to test the reliability that Koehler trained, most of us wouldn't know if our training system produced reliablility in those circumstances as we can no longer legally take a dog through such an exercise as Koehler could in his days. To rate a dog trained in Koehler methods against anything else in fairness we need to apply the rightful tests on the dog's training in the same vein that Koehler trained to determine the difference.